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August 13, 2009

A Warning From the Land That Made Socialized Medicine Infamous

British MEP Daniel Hannan's first-hand experience sheds light on why America's worst internal enemies are so adamant about ramming through socialized medicine:

Hat tip: Theo Spark, on a tip from JC.

Posted by Van Helsing at August 13, 2009 7:02 PM

Comments

Wow, what more is there to say. How can anyone on the left argue with this?

Posted by: Chad at August 13, 2009 7:58 PM

"How can anyone on the left argue with this?"

Oh they can't - at least not with genuine logical thinking. But since they don't use critical thinking they will most likely try.

Posted by: Morris at August 13, 2009 8:55 PM

Here's the killer. After WWII, Britain and West Germany were both heavily damaged, and both received Marshall Plan funds (Britain received more than Germany, btw) to aid in rebuilding.

Britain, under Clement Attlee after having elected a Labour government (turning out Churchill) in 1946, consumed theirs on building tower blocks (housing projects) and the NHS.

Germany, still under Allied occupation at the time, invested theirs in rebuilding industry.

Result: Germany laid the foundation for the Wirtsschaftswunder, whereas Britain became the economic "sick man of Europe" until Thatcher undid some of the damage.

A controlled experiment. Can't get much plainer than that.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at August 13, 2009 9:27 PM

If, as Daniel Hannan says, the British NHS is the third largest employer in the world, after the Chinese Red Army and Indian Railways, then a U.S. socialised health service could easily become the largest employer in the world, a state-run bureaucratic behemoth the likes of which will never have been seen in the history of mankind.

Posted by: Gongfarmer at August 14, 2009 12:05 AM

Where is our gallery of slack-jawed trolls, Goatse, Anonypussy, brandy and andy now?

Afraid of an knuckle dragging Brit doctor?

Posted by: Anonymous at August 14, 2009 4:31 AM

Anonymous, do you even know the definition of a blog troll?
I can only speak for myself in answering your question but there's nothing here for me. This is a hate blog. It promotes hate and fear. There's no rational discussion. And I seriously doubt that there's over 5 regular contributors and the rest have multiple names to allow them to either bob their heads in agreement or to distract the comments of anyone that doesn't (hence: troll).
I hope that answers your question. Well, I guess that was dishonest. Really, I don't give a flying rats ass if it does or not.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 14, 2009 5:22 AM

Andy, don't you have a bus to catch to get to a townhall meeting or something?
If you dislike this blog so much, I fail to understand why you continue to hang out here and argue with people in every thread.

Posted by: Murff at August 14, 2009 5:43 AM

What the hell was the purpose of Andy's post? He didn't offer a cogent arguement against what Daniel Hannan had to say, he just made up stuff about Moonbattery's participation. I'm not reading his shit anymore, along with Wellstone and Meh and Brandy's

Anyway, I love Daniel Hannan. Wish he'd emigrate and run for office.

Posted by: Karin at August 14, 2009 5:50 AM

The only fear this blog generates in normal people is the natural fear people have when they see a runaway train bearing down on them (socialized medicine in this instance) and the fear brain dead liberals have when they are confronted with reality.

Posted by: Judith M, at August 14, 2009 6:01 AM

Ah the old standard, fallback lefty argument. Disagreeing with leftists and criticizing their ideas = "hate".

Posted by: Dr. Carlo Lombardi at August 14, 2009 6:04 AM

Murff,

I fail to understand why you continue to hang out here and argue with people in every thread."

I haven't posted for several days and I have only respond to topics of interest. But this is Moonbattery so if you say I "argue with people in every thread" then it has to be true.

Andy, don't you have a bus to catch to get to a townhall meeting or something?

There's no need. I've read HR3200 and I understand it. There's no need in going to hear a lawmaker trying to explain facts to people that aren't interested in the truth.

Karin, the only reason I responded to anything was because Anon mentioned my name and asked why I didn't respond. I answered him.

There's no connection with Glenn Beck and Hannan with HR3200. There's nothing in HR3200 that promotes death panels, nowhere, no how, nothing. It's manufactured bullshit and you know it. But most here are blind to what they want to see and there's no need for me to engage in discussion. It can't happen here.

The death panels (Big Insurance) are already here and active. Preventing decisions between you and your doctor already exist. And they are making a fortune.
The resistance is coming from the fortunes of the true death squad (Big Insurance), their hired GOP and Blue Dog lawmakers, their paid groups that instill fear, and from the extreme right that's only goal is for the President to fail.

By the way, where was all this anger when Obama was making these very promises of heath reform on his campaign trail that got him elected?

This is really a double edged sword because the party of "no" will ultimately be held accountable if the bill is blocked and nothing changes.

I frequent the blog topics here and decided to listen to Hannan. I saw where Anon was asking about me and I responded.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 14, 2009 6:25 AM

By the way, where was all this anger when Obama was making these very promises of heath reform on his campaign trail that got him elected?
Posted by: andy42302 at August 14, 2009 6:25 AM

so you're saying people should have protested obama's policies BEFORE he won the election, what exactly is obama advocating? i only hear platitudes and "promises" but he never references any legislation on the table atm.

Posted by: weewilly at August 14, 2009 6:37 AM

pansy, er andy, have you read Marx's Manifesto too? Or do you just jerk off to the pictures of the Bolsheviks murdering 100 million of their own people? I know you can't wait to give the orders to gas the Christians.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 14, 2009 6:42 AM

no weewilly, I'm saying Big Insurance have used their playbook to instill fear, falsehoods, and lies to prevent competition.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 14, 2009 6:46 AM

A fan of our Constitution - has any US pol ever said that? Dem or Repub - they could learn something from this man.

Karin asks him to "emigrate and run for office" - indeed. Patriotism is such a scare commodity around the Beltway that we have to import that now too!

FWIW - ignore the trolls. Make no mention of them in your posts, they live for that. If no one responds to their crap, they will go away and poop on someone else's blog.

Posted by: Son of Taz at August 14, 2009 6:49 AM

I'm saying Big Insurance have used their playbook to instill fear, falsehoods, and lies to prevent competition.
Posted by: andy42302 at August 14, 2009 6:46 AM

you libs and your "demon" fetish: banks, ceos, "big insurance", pharma, talk-radio, foxnews, etc... does every issue require a demon, why aren't the government bureaucrats/politician ever the "demon", oh wait they were when republicans(also demons) were in power, i guess what i really want to know is why the left has so much hate?

Posted by: weewilly at August 14, 2009 6:52 AM

weewilly, like I said, andy would love to personally turn the switch on millions of upstanding conservative and especially Christians. It would give her such a thrill that she would have to change her panties.

How's that for hate?

Posted by: Anonymous at August 14, 2009 6:55 AM

A fan of our Constitution - has any US pol ever said that? Dem or Repub - they could learn something from this man.

Hannan has lived under socialism and clearly understands the value of our founding principles. Too bad so many of our own politicians have become so blinded by their leftist ideology that they can't see the greatness of our nation. It really sickens me to have a President and members of Congress that think America sucks and feel the need to travel around the world sh#itting all over our country.

Posted by: Kanaka Girl at August 14, 2009 7:08 AM

You gotta see this.......


ROTFLMAO!!!

Posted by: TED at August 14, 2009 7:08 AM

KG, Leftards like andy have no knowledge of history and thus, not appreciation for what life is truly like WITHOUT individualk liberty provided under the US Constitution. They are like an ungreatful spouse that always longs to be with the other more attractive person over there, not realizing the wonderful gift they have right beside them.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 14, 2009 7:20 AM

Dan's (we're drinking buddies) comments didnt go down well here with Labour or his own party leader! Undercover moonbat David Cameron called him "eccentric". Im afraid the idea of a core right political party is gone in the UK.

Posted by: Arch Conservative. at August 14, 2009 7:26 AM

daniel has a very enlightening blog and probably knows more about OUR constitution and history than most in the house and senate!

Posted by: nancz at August 14, 2009 7:40 AM

stuart varney, fox news is another who is quite learned in socialism and regularly goes OFF!

Posted by: nancz at August 14, 2009 7:43 AM

I want every one of the right-wingers here to find last night's Daily Show on comedycentral.com and WATCH IT (it has Glen Beck, so you don't have to fear being polluted by ideas you aren't ready for). It is the very top clip; http://www.thedailyshow.com/

Glen Beck was railing AGAINST the US healthcare system until very recently... yet magically, when Obama might actually accomplish something, Beck the Braying Moron decides our healthcare is 'the best ever, anywhere' - if all you guys listen to this chimp, go listen to what he said until his ratings slipped on hating existing US heathcare.

Easily programmed, easily led, and easily manipulated... way to go FauxNews audience. I assume you were all defending US healthcare while Beck was slamming it? Maybe watching something other than FauxNews, because of how strongly you all feel about this? Yeah.... thought so. (I actually did Wayback Machine it - your site didnt discuss anything at all defending US healthcare from Beck - other than poking Michael Moose over Sicko, you are curiously silent about all this until it became the insanity-du-jour for the propaganda arm of the the GOP...)

Good to know you are following orders well....

Posted by: GonePhishin' at August 14, 2009 7:58 AM

Good to know you are following orders well....

Yup! Did everyone else get their checks today?

Posted by: cowlove at August 14, 2009 8:08 AM

Posted by: TED at August 14, 2009 8:09 AM

I want every one of the right-wingers here to find last night's Daily Show on comedycentral.com and WATCH IT
Posted by: GonePhishin' at August 14, 2009 7:58 AM

didn't they rail against this type of torture when it was done against detainees? how's the daily shows ratings doing btw last time i heard about this program it was edging out olberman by a slim margin(same people watching both i assume).

Posted by: weewilly at August 14, 2009 8:44 AM

No thanks, Phish, I decline to watch the Daily Show. Your post here was incomprehensible, BTW.

Thanks Nancz for the link to Hannan's blog. I think I'll read that instead of watching Jon Stewart.

Posted by: Karin at August 14, 2009 8:53 AM

"This is really a double edged sword because the party of "no" will ultimately be held accountable if the bill is blocked and nothing changes."

Since the Democrat party has majorities in both the House and Senate, and the Executive branch, the only ones who can block the bill are Democrats. THEY will be the "party of 'no'".

Posted by: Henry at August 14, 2009 8:58 AM

Amen, Henry. The Democraps can't weasel their way out of THIS one, or blame someone else. They're on the hook for the whole thing.

Posted by: hiram at August 14, 2009 9:42 AM

Wee and Anon, you can't run away from the fact that there's no "death panel" or any language pertaining to it in HR3200. It's bogus and that's an undisputed fact. Oh wait, this is Moonbattery so you can run away from it and just pretend it's there. Silly me.

Henry and hiram, Blue Dog Democrats are also highly paid by Big Insurance. Any one of them could block a Senate vote. At the end of the day, the ball will be in Republican's court if they offer nothing.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 14, 2009 11:03 AM

Andy...

I'm still baffled as to how you manage to concoct these crazy scenarios that enable you to blame all your problems on the Republicans.

You, sir, have quite the skill. It's saddening that you use this ability to pursue an idiotic agenda.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 14, 2009 11:16 AM

Anon, I never questioned that you were baffled just as I've never questioned your inability to stay on topic. I was talking about the fabricated euthanasia attacks that don't exist in the bill. I was also talking about senatorial procedure and who will be held liable for the putcome. I have no clue what you're talking about and have to question if you do either.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 14, 2009 12:09 PM

Anon, I never questioned that you were baffled just as I've never questioned your inability to stay on topic. I was talking about the fabricated euthanasia attacks that don't exist in the bill. I was also talking about senatorial procedure and who will be held liable for the outcome. I have no clue what you're talking about and have to question if you do either.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 14, 2009 12:09 PM

Henry and hiram, Blue Dog Democrats are also highly paid by Big Insurance. Any one of them could block a Senate vote. At the end of the day, the ball will be in Republican's court if they offer nothing.

Posted by: KARL MARX42302 at August 14, 2009 11:03 AM

BWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

It's BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH again!

Come on Candy Andy.......you guys are in the drivers seat FOR NOW. Stop making excuses! You sound like you work in the white house.

Posted by: Dave at August 14, 2009 12:14 PM

Henry and hiram, Blue Dog Democrats are also highly paid by Big Insurance. Any one of them could block a Senate vote. At the end of the day, the ball will be in Republican's court if they offer nothing.

That's what I was referring to. You manage to make everything the Republican's fault. THIS is what baffles me.

If it's good for society, it's the demonRATs.
If it's bad for society, it's the Republicans.

That is EXACTLY how you think. Libtards will NEVER take blame for THEIR failed policies. They only want to reap the benefits, not accept the consequences.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 14, 2009 12:32 PM

Blue Dog Democrats are still DEMOCRATS. Take it up with them if the bill fails.

Posted by: Henry at August 14, 2009 12:39 PM

Dave if you and/or Henry want to believe that Dems will be held accountable, or go down as the party of "no", if HR3200 dies in the Senate, so be it. I've said before that if you guys are convinced that the world is flat, all the facts and reality in the world can't change that.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 14, 2009 12:43 PM

Perhaps you guys don't know what Blue Dogs Dems are,,,not of course that it would make any difference. They are the Nebraska's "Ben Nelsons", the Republicans in Democrat's clothing. They are akin to what you guys refer to RINOs. Even though they were elected as Democrats and caucus as such, they often vote on more conservative lines. In this case, they share something in common with Republicans. They get a lot of their campaign contributions from Big Insurance. Like Republicans, they are owned by BI.

Regardless, if you look at history, it was Big Insurance contributions and funding that killed Clinton's health reform. The Blue Dogs were bought on then too. But Dems weren't held accountable. The same will be true in 2009. Dems are for it and Reps are against it. Reps offered nothing but "no" and that's what the cards on the table will show.

But I understand that facts, history, and common sense has no place on Moonbattery.com

Posted by: andy42302 at August 14, 2009 12:58 PM

Republicans offered nothing but "no."

I think that explains how much of an incompetent person you are. Just because you jammed your fingers in your ears and screamed "NAH NAH NAH NYAH NYAH NYAH" doesn't mean that was was said during the that time didn't exist.

You.Are.Officially.Braindead.

I, honestly, believe that there is no hope for you. It's to the point where I'm having trouble finding the words to brand you with because you have successfully fulfilled the role of all others.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 14, 2009 1:03 PM

Andy, it was on pages 425-430.

Also, Republicans were not invited to participate in the crafting of this bill. Stimulus, and Crap&Trade as well. They lock the doors. We're not allowed to have a ball on the court.

Posted by: "Meh" at August 14, 2009 1:11 PM

Keep quibbling, Andy. It won't change the FACT that Dems are the only ones that can block the bill.

Posted by: Henry at August 14, 2009 1:40 PM

Dave if you and/or Henry want to believe that Dems will be held accountable, or go down as the party of "no", if HR3200 dies in the Senate, so be it. I've said before that if you guys are convinced that the world is flat, all the facts and reality in the world can't change that.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 14, 2009 12:43 PM

You are definitely off your meds Candy. You and your libtard minions keep forgetting that you guys are responsible for all that goes wrong now. The world flat?! You are the party of idiots that think Co2 is a pollutant. If you think that then why don't all of you idiots hold your breath? Maybe Obama care will revive if you pass out!

I PRAY THAT THIS BILL FAILS!

Posted by: Dave at August 14, 2009 2:19 PM

Meh, that's just incorrect. The bill went through and was passed by The House Education and Labor Committee, The Ways and Means Committee, and The Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee. All committees consisted of democrats and republicans, There was indeed Republican input. Even the end-of-life-counseling that you are very confused about (section 1233) was proposed by Republican Johnny Isakson of Georgia.


Section 1233 (page 425) says that the Federal government will pay for Advanced Care Planning by a medical professional once every five years, IF DESIRED by the patient. It is NOT mandatory. This counseling will not be conducted by the government or a government official. It will be a consultation between the patient and their doctor--IF THE PATIENT WANTS IT. Furthermore, nothing on page 425-430 requires the doctor to recommend any specific course of action to the patient.

What Section 1233 does is allow a patient, in consultation with their doctor, to have a say in what they, the patient, want done in the event of a medical emergency or critical situation. The patient, in consultation with their doctor, will receive, if they desire it and request it, paid help in preparing such things as a living will and/or a durable power of attorney for health care, or the designation of a health care proxy, all documents in which the patient can lay out what they want done in such circumstances. Such preparation helps the patient's family so that they do not have to make the difficult and painful choices when the patient is unable to do so. Such documents are good things and most doctors would encourage their patients to consider them. Newt, Palin, Grassley, and all of your talk show hero Republicans can twist and lie about this all they want but it doesn't change reality. This nonsense has been debunked time and time again. To misconstrue something is simply a mistake. To continue to claim that misunderstanding as fact is a lie. That's exactly what the GOP and Beck lunatics, and blogs such as this are doing.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 14, 2009 2:28 PM

And yet, if the bill fails, it will be because DEMS voted no.

Posted by: Henry at August 14, 2009 2:38 PM

"Even the end-of-life-counseling that you are very confused about (section 1233) was proposed by Republican Johnny Isakson of Georgia."

Why did I think this was fishy?

More lies.

Andy, you've just been reported to flag@whitehouse.gov.

Posted by: Henry at August 14, 2009 2:52 PM

Paul Krugman said it best in his blog today:

"You see, while Isakson did in fact call the euthanasia smear “nuts” — specifically referring to the House bill — he actually sponsored an amendment not to the House bill, but to the Senate HELP bill. His amendment would pay for end-of-life counseling out of a new national insurance program (participation would be voluntary, but the way the program would be structured would ensure that most people would join) rather than Medicare."

Posted by: andy42302 at August 14, 2009 3:15 PM

Is that the same Paul Krugman who got pwned when every Canadian in the room told him they think they "have a terrible healthcare system"?

Posted by: Henry at August 14, 2009 3:43 PM

Yeah... Krugman. There's a good source of information.

When you come back with credible sources then we'll be able to debate but, until then, your posts will continue to lack any sort of useful substance.

Posted by: AmericanToTheCore at August 14, 2009 4:12 PM

Henry, you direct me to a "moonbattery" blog as a credible source and then ATTC questions the source of a Nobel winner? And neither (or both or the one of you) still can't defend the nonexistent euthanasia claim that this thread deceivingly defends. You're simply defending the strategy of continuing a lie until it's considered the truth. That's the trademark of the party of "no".

In the meantime, it's being exposed across the Internet that GOP Boehner, McCotter, Isakson, Grassley, et al. voted for something almost identical to end of life counceling of HR3200 in 2003. But now they flipflop that it could lead to "death panels". It just depends on where the money's coming from. The GOP are paid whores and would slice grandma's throat in a heartbeat for political gain or a few corporate bucks. And you assclowns abet these thugs while they promote Big Insurance to deny claims at will and send folks home to die.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 14, 2009 4:46 PM

Andy, you really are as retarded as they say.

First, I never said anything about euthanasia. I chimed in to point out that the only ones capable of blocking HR3200 are the DEMS. THEY will be the "party of no". Yet, you refuse to acknowledge that FACT and just move to the next subject.

Which actually turns out to be some serious BS made up about Senator Isakson. I point out to you that Isakson never had anything to do with HR 3200 or Section 1233, and you reply with a cut-and-paste from one of the most biased hacks out there. I linked to the Krugman video to show you what a tool Krugman is. What? He won a Nobel prize? I guess that makes him a Nobel prize winning tool. Yet, you obviously still are clueless about how the whole process works. I'll spell it out for you:

HR3200 is a HOUSE bill. Isakson is a SENATOR. He had nothing to do with HR3200 nor Section 1233. It was clearly explained in Isakson's statement from his website, which you obviously didn't read. Isakson introduced an amendment to the SENATE bill in committee. He voted AGAINST the bill in committee. He DOES NOT support either the House Version or the Senate version.

You're going to have to come up with the link to what you claim Boehner, McCotter, Isakson, Grassley, et al. all voted on in 2003. No, Crooks and Liars, DKOS, HuffPo, etc. don't count. Show me the voting record from the Congressional website. You see, Senators and Representatives can't vote on the same bills.

Then you accuse me of being some kind of sock puppet? I'll leave the sock puppeting to your side of the aisle.

Don't bother responding. You're stupidity gives me a headache.

Posted by: Henry at August 14, 2009 7:36 PM

Ok, Henry, I can't use left leaning sites as references but you can use Moonbattery? I suppose that's about at fair as anything I've ever seen here. You can find the bill here and I'm sure you know how to navigate Thomas.gov.
You can find the vote at Senate.gov.

Isakson sponsored this bill in 2007.

"amend title XVIII of the Social Security Act to provide for coverage of an end-of-life planning consultation as part of an initial preventive physical examination under the Medicare program."

Isakson's office sent a written statement that read: "incentivize doctors by offering them money to conduct 'end-of-life counseling' with Medicare patients every five years."

Isakson's amendment to the Senate bill is different because,

"anyone who participates in the long-term care benefit provided in the bill – if they so choose – may use that benefit to obtain assistance in formulating their own living will and durable power of attorney. "

But here's the kicker and why I said that Krugman summed it up best. His ADMENDMENT is two pages and the section in the House bill is ten. But the bill Isakson offered is almost identical to the language of what Democrats offered. In short, Obama was incorrect to say that Isakson wrote section 1233 of HR3200. It is correct to say that Isakson helped build the foundation and support for this language.

I've already said that we disagree on your party of "no" forecast and no amount of arguing can change that. I know that most here only see what they want to see so I suppose it's only common sense that many of you can see into the future as well.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 15, 2009 6:56 AM


Isakson sponsored this bill in 2007
http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text

Posted by: andy42302 at August 15, 2009 7:16 AM