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June 3, 2009

Obama Portrays America as a Muslim Country

muslim-america.jpg
America as BHO would like to see it.

I've never been much of a fan of the socialist punk the liberal elite media installed in the White House, but I had no idea he was this flaky and ignorant:

As President Obama prepared to leave Washington to fly to the Middle East, he conducted several television and radio interviews at the White House to frame the goals for a five-day trip, including the highly-anticipated speech Thursday at Cairo University in Egypt.
In an interview with Laura Haim on Canal Plus, a French television station, Mr. Obama noted that the United States also could be considered as "one of the largest Muslim countries in the world."

Is B. Hussein insane? Less knowledgeable than a schoolboy? Claiming America on behalf of the caliphate? Or is he just giving us a foretaste of the shameful pandering in store for us when he grovels his way through the Islamic world, apologizing for the lousy country he is embarrassed to rule?

In case facts still have any relevance in the upside-down dystopia of Hopey Change, Muslims actually make up between 0.5% and 0.6% of our population, as confirmed here, here, here, and here. In absolute numbers, the Muslim population of the USA is about 1.5 million. The population of overwhelmingly Muslim Indonesia is about 238 million.

Maybe one day Obama will be able to bring reality in line with his rhetoric. Using our money to import Palestinian voters is a start.

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Put online by the Moonbat Messiah's own bureaucracy.

On tips from Richard C and Viking04. Hat tip: The Conservative Dominion.

Posted by Van Helsing at June 3, 2009 11:01 AM

Comments

Barack Obama is a stipid idiot this nation is still a christian nation no matter what that stupid brainless jackass brays about

Posted by: SPURWING PLOVER at June 3, 2009 11:22 AM

What an ignorant, arrogant ass.

Posted by: BQ at June 3, 2009 11:41 AM

Although in this instance I believe he was referencing the quantity of Muslims in the US, Obama's behavior, e.g., bowing to the Saudi king, policy, and some of his other statements reflects that he does not share any pride or heritage that we are a nation founded on Christian principles -- As, he has said:

"Whatever we once were, we're no longer just a Christian nation; we are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers."

While he dutifly acknowledges most of the population are Christian, his sentiments and policy lack appreciation or care for Christiany's influence on our national morality, policy and law.

Undoubtedly, part of his "Christian" disguise for appearances sake, is a feigned identity crisis regarding his own religious and moral beliefs, e.g. distancing himself from 20 years of black liberation theology, Reverend Wright, and his Muslim heritage, all of which he pulls off well, of course, with the aid and assistance of a sympathetic mainstream media to cover his slip-ups:

"You're absolutely right that John McCain has not talked about my Muslim faith," Obama said, before being corrected by Stephanopoulos.

Posted by: Zmarshall at June 3, 2009 11:51 AM

Those telepromters are definetly busted!

Posted by: General at June 3, 2009 11:52 AM

This misinformation will now be echoed and rationalized by the insipid MSM.
That will then have the desired effect of convincing slower teens, the mentally deranged and of course 99% of liberals.


Recall that when Clinton was rationalizing having received oral sex from The Big Lewinski, as meeting the legal definition of sex, that there issued some debate amoungst these groups about whether oral sex was in fact, sex.

Posted by: Fiberal at June 3, 2009 12:13 PM

absolutely frightening ignorance and stupidity on display.

Posted by: keepthechange08 at June 3, 2009 12:30 PM

What an assinine and sinister travesty this country has embraced in the form Barack Hussein Obama. I fear we're ruined.

Posted by: Where's the Hope? at June 3, 2009 12:38 PM

He misspoke. He meant to say he Hopes to Change this into the biggest Muslim country in the world!

Posted by: Annie at June 3, 2009 12:49 PM

Funny, not a word from TOTUS on his blog. I wonder if he was out sick?
Of course, this is just the latest in a long line of gaffes we won't see on MSM. It's up to the blogosphere, is all. We won't let it go.

Posted by: Karin at June 3, 2009 12:51 PM

This is one of the subjects at Foxnation. They have lots of Obamabot trolls crawling around there in the comments. They keep saying "Read the frickin article! He didn't say that!!!!!" OK, so I went and read the article. He said it. Time for a shearing.

Posted by: Karin at June 3, 2009 1:55 PM

Wasn't he just telling everyone we are NOT a Christian nation? Even though America has more Christians then any other country?

Posted by: DANEgerus at June 3, 2009 2:02 PM

that is the most horrid picture of Lady Liberty I've ever seen...it's offensive!

GOD Bless America!

Posted by: Heather M at June 3, 2009 2:58 PM

I'm a little curious about the religion known as "Historically Black Churches" What is up with that religion? Is it new? It seems to represent 6.9% of the religious affiliations pie chart so it must be kinda cool, right? How do I become a member?

Are Nobama, Bill Clinton and Oprah members?

I'm just a stupid White boy but I'm sure I would be accepted to this new fun religion with open arms, its a religion right?

I would rather be a member of this new, unheard of religion than be a part of Chairman Zeros "one of the largest Muslim countries in the world bullshit."

This is what you get when people that pay no taxes and are subsidized by people that do, are allowed to vote.

Bye Bye America, Its been nice.

Posted by: Bungee at June 3, 2009 4:10 PM

Wait a minute - are we sure he said the U.S. could be considered one of the largest Muslim nations in the world, or did he say his country was?

In the latter case, he was referring to Indonesia, in which case he's absolutely correct.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at June 3, 2009 4:25 PM

Hey, we can also be considered one of the biggest Buddhist countries too! Who knew? Ommmmm.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at June 3, 2009 5:00 PM

RE:Posted by: Bungee at June 3, 2009 4:10 PM

Bungee asks, "I'm a little curious about the religion known as "Historically Black Churches" What is up with that religion? Is it new? It seems to represent 6.9% of the religious affiliations pie chart so it must be kinda cool, right? How do I become a member?"


These are churches like your African Methodist Episcopal (AME) Churches. The traditionally accepted start of the AME Church was 1787, in Philadelphia, by the Free African Society (FAS), led by Richard Allen, Absalom Jones, and others.

I guess the "Black Liberation Theology" churches like "Reverend" Wright's Trinity Church fit into the "other" category.....although if I was a New Age crystal-worshipper or Wiccan, I'd be insulted.....

Maybe President Obama was mistakenly using Joe Biden's teleprompter instead.

Joe implies that Delaware has a lot of Hindus. Biden said: "In Delaware, the largest growth of population is Indian-Americans, moving from India. You cannot go to a 7/11 or a Dunkin' Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent. I’m not joking."

Posted by: TonyD95B at June 3, 2009 5:06 PM

For Democrats the problem with East Indians is, of course, that they aren't losers, and hence infertile ground for the Democrats.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at June 3, 2009 7:14 PM

TonyD95B, I'm afraid you have missed one of the most significant up and coming new churches in America, which the MSM can point to help explain everything Barry said:

here is their website:
http://www.obamachurch.info/index.html

Posted by: Zmarshall at June 3, 2009 7:33 PM

van helsing, i don't think bho is embarrassed to be our president. for someone as diabolical as him this is a wet dream, by destroying the greatest country in history with propaganda and deceit. its us that should be embarrassed that we let this happen

Posted by: Joe Nen at June 3, 2009 7:36 PM

"We do not consider ourselves a Christian nation, a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation. We consider ourselves a nation of citizens."

And one of the points I want to make is, is that if you actually took the number of Muslims Americans, we'd be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world.

Posted by: mandible claw at June 3, 2009 7:45 PM

No, we don't. We consider ourselves a Christian nation. I'm a straight-up atheist, and I consider this a Christian nation. That doesn't mean that everyone in the country is a Christian, but that the values and perspectives of this country are shaped by - and reflect - Christianity. Put another way, the country is most readily understood by considering its Christian heritage.

Of course, having said that, in much the same sense America is also a capitalist country, or used to be, at any rate.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at June 3, 2009 7:54 PM

I've been waiting to see "the light" but so far all I see is Clinton's gun against my head.

All in all, Obama's statement was a stupid statement by a stupid man.

Oh! But he's NOT a stupid man (scream the stupid liberals while foaming at the mouth). Okay. Then he should release his college transcripts to prove it. He is a stupid Marxist who is ashamed of his grades, and ashamed of his past. He is a fake, he is a racist (typical white people).

He is not a moron or an idiot; his IQ is around 88 - which means he is smarter than the typical liberal, but not smart enough to run a farm (or Government Motors). Detroit is his model.

The only ones who will survive will be those who "cling to their bibles and guns" and who grow their own food and shoot their own meat. The stupid liberals in the Porn Belts are as good as rotting corpses.

He is a little fake who is in WAY over his little pin-head. Just ask Joe Biden.

Posted by: The Ghost of Vince Foster at June 3, 2009 10:23 PM

Ghost of Vince Foster -- While your holding your breath waiting for the One to release his college transcripts, see if he will also release:

His original certified birth certificate (not the fake circulating on the internet)
Obama - Dunham marriage license
Soetoro - Dunham marriage license
Soetoro adoption records
Besuki School application
Punahou School records
Selective Service Registration
Occidental College records
Pakistani Passport
Columbia College records
Columbia thesis
Harvard College records
Harvard Law Review articles
Baptism certificate
Medical records - Barack Obama stands alone in the last three elections as the only candidate to not release medical records to the public. http://www.bloggernews.net/118191
Illinois State Senate records
Law practice client list
University of Chicago scholarly articles
http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2008/08/senator_obama_w.php; http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/clinton-obama-withholds-records

Campaign donor records - full disclosure of the identity and amounts of some 2 million donors is being kept secret, the donors who made unrounded contributions (obviously foreign currency transactions) gave a total of $31,484,584.27, meaning that as much as $63 million may have come from questionable sources. Accepting prohibited contributions from foreign nationals and excessive contributions from individuals is illegal. http://www.newsmax.com/timmerman/obama_illegal_donations/2008/10/19/141979.html; http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2008/08/senator_obama_w.php

Where the hell are the investigative journalists? The MSM could care a less about this. I forgot, candidness is only for the little people, not Far Left Democraps, much less the Messiah of Liberalism. Yet the One has no problem releasing other people's records. http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Obama_to_release_Reagan_records_kept_0410.html

Why, the next thing I'll be after is for Jean Francios Kerry to authorize complete access to all of his military records by filing a standard Form 180, a simple two-page release form. http://horse.he.net/~swiftpow/index.php?topic=KerryinVietnam

Posted by: ZMarshall at June 4, 2009 12:00 AM

There are 3 times as many Jews in America than Muslims? Does that mean this could be the largest Jewish State on Earth next to Israel?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population#Largest_Jewish_populations_by_country

Only 500,000 behind Israel itself.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 4, 2009 5:10 AM

Being a "Christian Nation" only refers to laws based on Christian principles. Not the same thing as a Theocracy, which is what nearly all of Islamic countries are.

Try and build a Church in a Muslim country or Try and build a Mosque in a Christian country. Which will be built and which wont be. The answer is rather simple.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 4, 2009 5:15 AM

Democracy and Christianity are contradictory.

Therefore America is built on decidedly anti-christian values and principles.

Democracy existed long before Christianity.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 4, 2009 5:20 AM

Now let me make this perfectly clear. Oral sex is only sexual relations if you are the one GIVING it.

Posted by: Billy-Bob Clinton at June 4, 2009 5:46 AM

Posted by: Anonymous at June 4, 2009 5:20 AM

Good story. Do you have some reasoning to support it, or will it remain a fairy tale?

Posted by: cowlove at June 4, 2009 7:04 AM

Christianity is the only fairytale you believe in cowlove.

Christianity is incompatible with democracy. The religion neither advocates nor values democratic principles. Christianity teaches that humans are essentially shit, not capable of making choices, and are motivated solely by fear of an authoritarian leader. There is nothing that supports democratic reasoning in Christianity. It's follow orders, or go to hell. Nothing in christianity supports democratic process of voting or majority rule.....Human experience and thought is completely and absolutely without value, as is logic and reason, which becomes immediately evident when discussing anything with a devout follower of Christ.

Posted by: wingnutcracker at June 4, 2009 7:12 AM

Christianity is incompatible with democracy.

Source please.

The religion neither advocates nor values democratic principles.

What principles does Christianity not value?

Christianity teaches that humans are essentially shit, not capable of making choices, and are motivated solely by fear of an authoritarian leader.

I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.

Psalm 139:14

There is nothing that supports democratic reasoning in Christianity. It's follow orders, or go to hell. Nothing in christianity supports democratic process of voting or majority rule.....

You got me there. The Bible certainly doesn't mention anything about the Electoral College, campaigning, or voting. You're a whiz.

Human experience and thought is completely and absolutely without value, as is logic and reason, which becomes immediately evident when discussing anything with a devout follower of Christ.

I'm not suprised you'd have a problem here, as it's a subtlety. It's not that human experience and thought are without value, it's that they're both worthless when compared to Almighty God. And, clearly, human logic and reason are not worthy gods to follow as you propose. For example, your reasoning leads you believe that murdering babies in the womb is perfectly acceptable morality. Human logic and reasoning led people to believe that black men should be slaves and counted as only 3/5's of one man, that the sun revolved around the earth, that leeches cured disease, that Jews should be exterminated, and that spending trillions of dollars a country doesn't have will help that country get out of a spending-induced economic disaster.

Overall, your diatribe boils down to the fact that you dislike Christianity, therefore you'd like to revise history to say our country was not built on Christian principles by God-fearing men. I'm not buying it, and you do a piss-poor job of selling it.

Posted by: cowlove at June 4, 2009 7:28 AM

Dont forget this is the same stupid jerk who claimed we had 57 states

Posted by: Flu-Bird at June 4, 2009 7:45 AM

i never said there were 57 states. you show me where.

cowlove, your entire post would be fine until you got to the part about how reason and logic don't get you anywhere. How can i dialogue with a person who does not believe in rationality and reason? A person who actually believes that reason led to slavery. No, my friend, Christianity was at the core of the JUSTIFICATION for slavery. Why do you think the african population is largely christian to this day? Because they were enslaved and converted and Christianity was a major tool used to sell slavery..Are you seriously ignorant of the fact that it was deeply Christian people who perpetuated slavery in American and Europe?

Do you also not realize that people felt the sun revolved around the earth, because it says so IN THE BIBLE! Not due to reason. In fact as soon as people had achieved high math and science reasoning skills and were able to prove that the earth was not the center of the universe, the christians excommunicated or in some cases executed them. You see, when just about every comment about the physical nature of the universe as descirbed in the bible can be disproved by reason and logic, Christians tend to get pretty pissed off.

As for exterminating Jews, that is another Christian idea! You want to talk about a Christian nation? How about Germany in the 1930's? What religion do you think these people were brought up in? You mean to tell me that there is no reason, after reading the new testament, for a a christian to harbor ill will towards the Jews? You gotta be kiddin' me! Jew hating is what Christianity is built on.

Seriously, I don't think you've really read enough about the history of your religion, or even thoroughly understand what reason and logic are

You know there was a period of time when reason and rationality were thought to be useless, a time when Christianity ruled the western world, a time when the Christian principles, you so fondly speak of, were the norm. It was called the Dark Ages.

Posted by: wingnutcracker at June 4, 2009 9:33 AM

seriously though i still cant get over the fact that people like you seem to think deeply Christian nations, Nations that prided themselves on their Christian values and principles, like Germany, Poland, Italy, or hell most of Europe, in the 30's, suddenly stopped practicing Christianity and went all pagan for 10 years, and then went back to being christians after the war.

You know people still went to church, nazis went to church. Hitler went to church.In some ways, Hitler was more devout than Thomas Jefferson. Christianity thrived in Europe during the war. You know there used to be lot of jews in Europe. Not many any more. Europe is an openly Christian continent. When Christian values are given reign, Jews tend to die. It wasn't the first time Jews were nearly exterminated by Europe's christians either. Israel basically exits today because Christians feel so bad about nearly exterminating them all, they gave what was left of 'em a little slice of desert to live on, just as long as they stay there.

The fact that Jews have thrived in America is proof positive that America is not a Christian nation.

Posted by: wingnutcracker at June 4, 2009 9:48 AM

cowlove, your entire post would be fine until you got to the part about how reason and logic don't get you anywhere.

I clearly never even implied that they don't get you anywhere. I said they don't get you everywhere. Holding them as ruling gods is infantile.

How can i dialogue with a person who does not believe in rationality and reason? A person who actually believes that reason led to slavery. No, my friend, Christianity was at the core of the JUSTIFICATION for slavery.

It did. Africans were reasoned to be sub-human, thus worthy of being enslaved. The Supreme Court reasoned that they were worth some fraction of a whole man. If our American forefathers enslaved Africans in the name of Christianity, the onus is on you to cite your source.

Why do you think the african population is largely christian to this day? Because they were enslaved and converted and Christianity was a major tool used to sell slavery..

Really? Africans were told about some weird religion wherein it was justified to sell them as property, beat them, and kill them at will? And that was a selling point? And they accepted it??? You must think Africans are utterly stupid.

Are you seriously ignorant of the fact that it was deeply Christian people who perpetuated slavery in American and Europe?

If that point stands, then the point remains it was deeply Christian men who founded our country on their deeply held Christian beliefs. But more to the point, there were more than just Christian men involved in slavery. Africans captured and sold their fellow Africans. On what did they base their justification for these heinous acts? I wonder if they used reason and logic to arrive at their decisions...

Do you also not realize that people felt the sun revolved around the earth, because it says so IN THE BIBLE! Not due to reason.

Source please. It's getting tiresome to ask you to cite references to support your arguments. Just go ahead and assume I want you to do so.

In fact as soon as people had achieved high math and science reasoning skills and were able to prove that the earth was not the center of the universe, the christians excommunicated or in some cases executed them.

This is entirely false. Again, source please if you'd like the point to be considered.

You see, when just about every comment about the physical nature of the universe as descirbed in the bible can be disproved by reason and logic, Christians tend to get pretty pissed off.

Can you imagine reading a book that described things opposite of how they actually occurred? I don't think it would get read much, do you? If you want to cite some examples to back up your arguments, I'm all for it.

As for exterminating Jews, that is another Christian idea!

You are a pathetic liar.

You want to talk about a Christian nation? How about Germany in the 1930's? What religion do you think these people were brought up in? You mean to tell me that there is no reason, after reading the new testament, for a a christian to harbor ill will towards the Jews? You gotta be kiddin' me! Jew hating is what Christianity is built on.

Except for Christ being Jewish, I suppose. Oh and the whole "Jews being God's chosen people." It's funny how Christians get accused of supporting Israel specifically for religious reasons, and yet here you are telling me that my religious beliefs actually tell me to hate Jews. What a goof.

Seriously, I don't think you've really read enough about the history of your religion, or even thoroughly understand what reason and logic are

That's really ironic, because you clearly have absolutely no knowledge of Christianity or Biblical teaching, yet you purport to lecture me on both.

You know there was a period of time when reason and rationality were thought to be useless, a time when Christianity ruled the western world, a time when the Christian principles, you so fondly speak of, were the norm. It was called the Dark Ages.

More irony.

The public idea of the Middle Ages as a supposed "Dark Age" is also reflected in misconceptions regarding the study of nature during this period. The contemporary historians of science David C. Lindberg and Ronald Numbers discuss the widespread popular belief that the Middle Ages was a "time of ignorance and superstition," the blame for which is to be laid on the Christian Church for allegedly "placing the word of religious authorities over personal experience and rational activity," and emphasize that this view is essentially a caricature.[15] For instance, a claim that was first propagated in the 19th century[16] and is still very common in popular culture is the supposition that all people from the Middle Ages believed that the Earth was flat. According to Lindberg and Ronald L. Numbers, this claim was mistaken, as "there was scarcely a Christian scholar of the Middle Ages who did not acknowledge [Earth's] sphericity and even know its approximate circumference."[16][17]

Look, I get that you don't like Christianity, and that's fine, really. No one is going to burn you at the stake here (unless you're a witch, of course). But why don't you just leave it at that? It's OK for you to not like Christianity. It's not OK for you to tell bald-faced lies and pretend this country was not founded by Christian men on Christian principles.

Posted by: cowlove at June 4, 2009 10:02 AM

well cowlove, if you honeslty believe: that there was no correlation nor connection between the justifications of slavery and christianity, that the church didn't fight every scientific advancement, and continues to fight them, in modern history, and that there is some kind of kinship or brotherhood between jews and christians, well what can i do? You want me to provide sources? How about a history book? But seriously, I can't provide an education for you. If you missed it the first time, I'm sorry, but i'm not responsible for teaching you all you missed. You'll have to look the stuff up your self. It shouldn't be hard to find.

You do realize that africans did not simply accept christianity? It was beaten into them! They were slaves! The ones who didn't accept the Christian value of subjugation for the sake of the Lord, were killed. Simple as that. If you wanted to stay alive you accepted what your master told you to accept. That's kind of how slavery works.

again, there is no bond other than blood between christians and Jews. Sure, The muslims hate the jews, but a quick glance at history will reveal that christians have been much more efficient and effective in killing jews, by a longshot!

Posted by: wingnutcracker at June 4, 2009 10:20 AM

well cowlove, if you honeslty believe: that there was no correlation nor connection between the justifications of slavery and christianity, that the church didn't fight every scientific advancement, and continues to fight them, in modern history, and that there is some kind of kinship or brotherhood between jews and christians, well what can i do? You want me to provide sources? How about a history book? But seriously, I can't provide an education for you. If you missed it the first time, I'm sorry, but i'm not responsible for teaching you all you missed. You'll have to look the stuff up your self. It shouldn't be hard to find.

The reason I don't believe any of your garbage is because I am a learned and inquiring person. I've sought answers on my own, sans the spoon-fed rhetoric of people like you. I even provided evidence for my beliefs to you in this discussion. And your response is to tell me that if I don't share your beliefs then there's nothing you can do to convince me? Damn skippy, especially when your talking points are demonstrably false.

You do realize that africans did not simply accept christianity? It was beaten into them! They were slaves! The ones who didn't accept the Christian value of subjugation for the sake of the Lord, were killed. Simple as that. If you wanted to stay alive you accepted what your master told you to accept. That's kind of how slavery works.

No, slavery means pick this cotton or I'll beat you. I've never heard of this Christian value of "subjugation to the white man for the sake of the Lord." Maybe you can, you know, provide a source?

I still don't see how you just assume slaves accepted Christianity for hundreds of years simply because they were told to, to justify their own slavery. If I were black I'd be very offended at your implication concerning my intelligence, because only a complete idiot would believe your inane argument.

again, there is no bond other than blood between christians and Jews. Sure, The muslims hate the jews, but a quick glance at history will reveal that christians have been much more efficient and effective in killing jews, by a longshot!

As usual, you remain a liar.

Christians believe Jews are God's chosen people. Muslims believe Jews are pigs and should be slaughtered, but like a good liberal drone, you whitewash the Muslim faith and attack Christianity.

There's just something so pathetic about you. Pitiful, even, but you're too hateful to be pitied.

Posted by: cowlove at June 4, 2009 10:32 AM

from your favorite site: wikipedia....where you learn everything you know:


the 15th century, the Papacy was openly advocating slavery. In 1452 Pope Nicholas V, in his Dum Diversas, instituted the hereditary enslavement of "nonbelievers". Approximately 40 years later, this was reiterated by the new pope Alexander VI, in the bull Eximiae Devotionis, which instructs that all non-Christians, wherever they are located, should be found, captured, and reduced to perpetual slavery. Pope Gregory XI, excommunicated the Florentines and ordered them to be enslaved if captured[96]. The 1510 Requerimiento, in relation to the Spanish invasion of South America, demanded that the local populations convert to Roman Catholicism immediately, on pain of slavery or death.
Christian organisations were also major slaveholders. In 1488, Pope Innocent VIII accepted the gift of 100 slaves from Ferdinand II of Aragon, and distributed those slaves to his cardinals and the Roman nobility[97]. In 1639 Pope Urban VIII purchased slaves for himself from the Knights of Malta[98]. The 18th century evangelical protestant Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts owned the Codrington Plantation, in Barbados, containing several hundred slaves, branded on their chests with the word Society[99][100]. George Whitefield, famed for his sparking of the so-called Great Awakening of American evangelicalism, overturned a province-wide ban against slavery[101], and went on to own several hundred slaves himself[102].


In the southern United States, however, support for slavery was strong; anti-slavery literature was prevented from passing through the postal system, and even sermons, from the famed English preacher Charles Spurgeon, were burned due to their censure of slavery[110]. The Bible was used, and manipulated, to support the institution of slavery and inhumane practices; crimes such as murder were seen as justifiable, if the victims were black. When civil war broke out, to settle the question of the limits of federal power, slavery became one of the issues which would be decided by the outcome; the southern defeat lead to a constitutional ban on slavery. Despite the general emancipation of slaves, members of fringe Christian groups like the Christian Identity movement, and the Ku Klux Klan (an organization dedicated to the empowerment of the white race), and Christian Reconstructionists still argue that slavery is justified by Christian doctrine today.


Look, im sorry, just becuase you don't want to hear what i have to say, it doesn't make me a liar. You see it your way if you want. Christianity is all peaceful and about love, right? Ok, if that's the way you want to see it. But don't call me a liar, because i look at history and only see a small minority if people who call themselves christians behaving in a civilized manner. Im not a liar, because i don't buy it.

Posted by: wingnutcracker at June 4, 2009 10:53 AM

"i never said there were 57 states. you show me where."
He's referring to Obama (Who DID make that comment, I've seen the video of it), not you, stupid.
Flu- bird was referring to the article at hand, saying that the comment of America being a Muslim nation is coming from the same guy who claimed America has 57 states (Obama).

btw, you claim CHristianity caused human slavery. I call B.S. on that. Some guys perverted certain Christian principles in a laughable attempt to justify slavery, but it is important to remember that many of the loudest voices in the abolition movment which ultimately led to the banning of slavery came from the evangelical Christian groups (People that you and other ultra- libs would have undoubtedly dismissed as "Dumb, crazy fundies"). Watch the movie 'Amazing Grace' to gain an idea of what I'm talking about, as that shows how William Wilberforce's Christian faith was one of the major motivating factors in his leading in Parliament the movement to ban the slave trade in England. For another example, John Wesley, legendary evangelist and founder of the Methodist Church, spoke frequently of the evils of slavery.
Furthermore, the slave owners who claimed to use Christianity as justification only focused on certain, heavily out- of- context parts of the Bible to justify slavery and encourage their slaves to be obedient (i.e. a passage which encourages believers to be humble and submit to God would be perverted by a slave owner into meaning that slaves should submit to and obey their masters), while ignoring other sections of the Bible that wouldn't fit that purpose, and forbidding the slaves from holding their own worship services for fear that the slaves might discover the sections which are against slavery (i.e. the slaves' underground churches were quite fond of Exodus' description of God helping Moses lead the Hebrew slaves to freedom).
"Do you also not realize that people felt the sun revolved around the earth, because it says so IN THE BIBLE!"
No it doesn't, stupid! I'm two years into getting my Masters at a theological seminary, and nowhere in the Bible does it say the sun revolves around the Earth. Some people in the church assumed that it did, but the Bible never said it did.

"some ways, Hitler was more devout than Thomas Jefferson."
Hitler dabbled heavily in paganism and the occult. Not exactly something a devout CHristian would do.
btw, plenty of Christians were also killed in the Holocaust, usually for either openly expressing their opposition to the Holocaust, or sheltering Jews in their houses due to the Christian commandment to love their fellow man.

" Jew hating is what Christianity is built on."
I'm not sure which is stronger: Your hatred, or your ignorance. Jesus was a Jew. So was Paul, and so were many other prominent Christians in the New Testament.
Christianity does NOT teach us to hate Jews, the Bible refers to Jews as God's Chosen People. The book of Esther is all about how Queen Esther saved her fellow Jews from being wiped out in a genocide. If you're going to go with the whole "The Jews killed Christ" garbage, I'd point out that the blame for that really lied with the corrupt Pharisees who had Him crucified, not with all Jews for all time. If Christianity taught us to hate Jews, then why do so many American Christians support Israel?
"When Christian values are given reign, Jews tend to die."
Oh, please! Any sources? Didn't think so. btw, when secular, atheistic values are given reign, Christians tend to die.
" Europe is an openly Christian continent."
Not anymore, not really. The Christianity that is preached there tends to be a pathetic, lukewarm, heavily watered- down excuse for Christianity which doesn't encourage anyone and is more concerned about political correctness and "Social justice" than about personal holiness and saving souls. Islam is rapidly gaining control in European nations, just look at England and France.
As an article I once read noted, there has been an interesting reversal over time in terms of Christian missions work. In the early days of America's history, Europe sent missionaries to the U.S. to spread the Gospel. Nowadays, Europe has become so secularized and fallen away from the faith so much that things have reversed, now it's American missionaries being sent to Europe to spread the Gospel! I once heard from a speaker who for a long time ran a mission in Holland, where drug addiction and degeneracy run rampant. He did an excellent job of helping prostitutes, drug addicts, and other lost souls find Christ and become saved. This in turn pissed off many of the local drug dealers and pimps who were losing a lot of their business as a result, one of whom threatened to kidnap and murder the man's son if the man didn't shut down his mission and leave immediately (He didn't, but his son remained safe).
I will pray for you, sir.

Posted by: Adam at June 4, 2009 10:53 AM

Adam, you are right, europe is not openly christian anymore, they were when they were violent and out of control.

why are there so few jews in the world? Christians have been trying to kill them for thousands of years. That's why...They've been pretty successful too. Look at the stats.

Look you can say all you want about how you believe that christians just looooovvve the jews. Its a load of shit. Ultimately, jews like all non believers are doomed to eternity in hell. Christians will let jews know this rather openly. You can say you love the jews all you want, but your "god" is sending em all to hell anyway.

as noted above, Christianity has long embraced slavery. It's not just in america.


Hitler dabbled in the occult? Prove to me he wasn't a practicing Catholic. Germany was a nation of christians!

Sure, a minority population of christians helped fight to end slavery. I'll give you that. Nice job.

Posted by: wingnutcracker at June 4, 2009 11:04 AM

Look, im sorry, just becuase you don't want to hear what i have to say, it doesn't make me a liar. You see it your way if you want. Christianity is all peaceful and about love, right? Ok, if that's the way you want to see it. But don't call me a liar, because i look at history and only see a small minority if people who call themselves christians behaving in a civilized manner. Im not a liar, because i don't buy it.

You are a liar, and an intellectually vapid one at that.

You even touch on your own dilemma by your explicit admission that Christians helped to end slavery, among other evils. If there are Christians, tribesman, Muslims, Jews, etc. etc. all promoting and participating in slavery, and there are likewise Christians, tribesman, Muslims, Jews, and so on and so forth also fighting against slavery and helping to end it, what do we know about each belief set?

Nothing. All we know is that men used their own reasoning powers and logic to justify evil acts.

When I asked you for evidence that Christianity promoted any of the evil you mentioned, I expected that evidence to be Biblical. Instead, you point to the actions of fallible men, nevermind the "minority" who shared a Christian faith and, admittedly, helped to end those same evils. No, that doesn't help your argument, so you write them off as a minority.

And don't even get me started on your attempts to lay the Holocaust at the feet of Christianity.

Face it, you're a lying bigot, filled to the brim with hate and incapable of independent, rational thought.

Posted by: cowlove at June 4, 2009 11:42 AM

There have been more people killed over religion than anything Else. Religion is a powerful thing, don't let it over power or cloud your thoughts.

Posted by: Arizona at June 4, 2009 12:05 PM

There have been more people killed over religion than anything Else. Religion is a powerful thing, don't let it over power or cloud your thoughts.

Posted by: Arizona at June 4, 2009 12:05 PM

Perhaps we should go to the videotape to see what President Obama actually said?

http://www.dailykostv.com/w/001818/

Posted by: Victor at June 4, 2009 12:24 PM

face it cowlove, the only one lying to you is yourself. good luck with your beliefs.

Posted by: wingnutcracker at June 4, 2009 12:47 PM

The Old testament devotes entire passages as to how to treat slaves. God condones slavery in the bible. Now you want me to tell you about your holy book too?? Major mainstream christian figures, as referenced above, advocated and owned slaves. They found justification in the Bible, as did just about every single slave owner and slave trader in America.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

New Testament
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)


Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

man, i thought you had at least read that.

Posted by: wingnutcracker at June 4, 2009 12:54 PM

You really are a WINGNUT. God help you son.

Posted by: Dave at June 4, 2009 1:12 PM

no no, dave, i have no need for God's help...thanks...you're obviously the one who needs it. good luck getting any.

Posted by: wingnutcracker at June 4, 2009 1:30 PM

I pray for guidance and help upon awaking and laying down, you atheist piece of human debris. People like you destroy the foundation that this country was built on. You do need help SON and no human power can help you not even yourself. One day when you grow up to be a big boy you will learn this. I just love your posts I've been barfing through. it's easy for you to throw out your opinion on facts that more than likely you came up with by yourself. Oh sure you throw in some biblical candy with some wikipedia sprinkles to back up your loose bullshit but you have no spirituality what so ever. Cowlove calls you a liar but you are nothing but a pseudo intellectual fraud. Believe it!


Hammer and sickle time for socialist atheist pinko!

Posted by: Dave at June 4, 2009 2:02 PM

wingnutcracker,
1. You're mainly using stuff from the Old Testament, which isn't exactly followed much anymore, as much of that was intended to apply to back then, in terms of laws and dietary restrictions and such things.

2. As I said before, evangelical Christians (And not just a "Small minority," as you claim without offering any proof) were able to find many passages in the Bible opposing slavery. Seriously, watch 'Amazing Grace,' when you have the chance.

3. Nowhere in the Bible does God say that He approves of slavery. If He did, why would He have led Moses to free the Hebrew slaves?
4. The occultic practices of Hitler and much of the SS are pretty common knowledge. They weren't generally open about it, for fear of how the German people would react, but the evidence was still clear that they definitely practiced it. You can look it up if you want.
5. You are again using what men claiming to be Christians (Usually with absolutely nothing to back up those claims, since many of those were not CHristians, they just used a few perverted verses to try and justify what they did) have done, not what the Christian faith teaches.
6. "why are there so few jews in the world? Christians have been trying to kill them for thousands of years. That's why...They've been pretty successful too. Look at the stats."
No, see, you're thinking of Muslims, who have always sought to wipe Jews off the face of the Earth, while Christians, true Christians,sought to show them God's love. They might not follow our beliefs, but the Bible teaches us to love all men, even if their beliefs we may see as wrong. Hate the sin, love the sinner and all.

I won't carry on this debate with you any longer, since you have no manners or tolerance. Actually, it's not a debate, it's just you slinging anti- Christian hatred and determined to show the world what a colossal bigot you are.

Posted by: Adam at June 4, 2009 2:07 PM

mighty christian of you dave.

adam, I gave you quotes from the new testament as well, there are more. Im not gonna look up everything for you. You should know what your book says. I don't see what gives you the authority to pick and choose the bits of the old and new testaments you like and discard the bits you dont want to accept anymore. You still accept the homosexual hatred. Why not the anti-jew and pro-slavery stance? Why not the dietary restrictions, the animal sacrifice? Well, those would be inconvenient and ugly, so you just wave it off with a Oh it doesn't apply anymore.....what crap.

Still I challenge you to show me evidence that Hitler was guided by occultist principles and was not a practicing Catholic most of his life.

Your arguments are weak and based on defensive apologetic tactics.

Posted by: wingnutcracker at June 4, 2009 2:33 PM

It would be wingnutlicker if were a christian but I'm not. Sorry to disappoint you. Mighty atheist of you for noticing. You are so full of yourself. I'll be ignoring you now you are not worth the key strokes.

Posted by: Dave at June 4, 2009 2:42 PM

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. .. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison."

Adolph Hitler

Posted by: wingnutcracker at June 4, 2009 2:49 PM

Mien Kampf.....Diary of a mad man in prison You idiot.

Posted by: Dave at June 4, 2009 2:55 PM

a christian who felt he was doing the lord's work in ridding the world of the jews. He sold the idea to a christian nation quite easily, and man did those christian values come pouring out all over europe then...Wonder what ole' Jesus was up to at that time. Must of been pretty important. You know, not saving his "chosen people" from nations of people calling themselves Christians and all.

The lord sure does work in mysterious ways, huh?

Posted by: wingnutcracker at June 4, 2009 3:02 PM

You are a bigot!!!!

Posted by: Dave at June 4, 2009 3:05 PM

Wingnutlicker you should have been miscarried or your parents should have been arrested for giving birth to such a bigoted animal. Good bye for now I hope you have a rich life in the hell you are creating. You are the angel of Obama the Anti Christ.

Posted by: Dave at June 4, 2009 3:12 PM

" I don't see what gives you the authority to pick and choose the bits of the old and new testaments you like and discard the bits you dont want to accept anymore."
It's a matter of knowing in what context those passages were made to know if they still apply.
"You still accept the homosexual hatred."
That depends on what you would call 'Homosexual hatred.' I believe homosexuality is a sin and unnatural, but I don't hate gay people for it. I have had numerous gay friends,even though I personally disapprove of their lifestyles.
btw, there are plenty of passages in the New Testament which also convey that homosexuality is a sin, so it still counts.
"Why not the anti-jew and pro-slavery stance?"
1. Nowhere in the Bible is there an anti- Jew stance. As I pointed out earlier, the book of Esther is all about her saving the Jews from an attempted genocide against them. For a simplified and slightly romanticized look at that story, I'd suggest seeing the film 'One Night With the King.'
2. Acknowledging slavery exists, as the Bible does, is not the same thing as promoting it. btw, the book of Philemon is all about showing compassion towards a runaway slave.

"Why not the dietary restrictions, the animal sacrifice?"
Dietary restrictions are not really necessary anymore, in fact as Christ showed, most of the petty former requirements are not needed anymore, because they formed a system of legalism with no room for God's grace, hence why Christ at times broke them during His Earthly ministry (i.e. healing on the Sabbath).
Animal sacrifices are not needed anymore because in the days of the Old Testament, the animal sacrifices were needed because their blood could cover the sins of the person offering it, whereas Christ's ultimate sacrifice on the Cross, as God Almighty, provided a permanent covering of the sins of all the world. So, animal sacrifices are no longer necessary.
"Still I challenge you to show me evidence that Hitler was guided by occultist principles and was not a practicing Catholic most of his life."
Again I say, Hitler's occultic practices are fairly common knowledge, you could even just enter 'Hitler occult' into a search engine and see all the proof you need. As you yourself said to me, I'm not gonna look up everything for you.
btw, if you call him a Catholic, it should be known that several Protestants do not view Catholics as Christians, since many Catholics pray to the Virgin Mary (Which can be seen as idolatry). Personally, I don't know where I stand on that issue.
"Your arguments are weak and based on defensive apologetic tactics."
And your arguments are shallow, petty, and based entirely on a combination of ignorance (i.e. Believing the Bible encourages hatred of Jews) and hatred (i.e. Mocking my faith and blaspheming the Lord the way you did in the 3:02 post). So, in other words, you act like a typical liberal troll.
In the vast multitude of your posts on this site over the months you've been there, your hate, cynicism,and ignorance prevent you from gaining any kind of admiration or making any kind of concrete arguments that can stick (i.e. in one post a couple months back that was a compilation of tea party photos, you demonstrated your immense wit, wisdom, and tolerance of opposing views by labeling them all as part of the "redneck nation" who "Hate America").
For you to live like that, I genuinely pity you.

Posted by: Adam at June 4, 2009 5:23 PM

Well, I have to admit it was a baited challenge, wingnutcracker, and you certainly didn't disappoint. See, the Scripture you cited shows us two things:

1. You have no respect or understanding for cultural differences, and
2. You have no understanding of Scripture.

If you did, you would understand that slavery in the days of the Old Testament was a function of culture and economic necessity. The guidelines placed on it by God are easily analyzed along those lines. Interesting enough, God unequivocally denounces and condemns race-based slavery in Exodus(the slavery you're most familiar with). Also in Exodus 21:16, God demands the death sentence for slave-trading. Again, slave traders are called immoral in 1 Timoth 1:9-10. So, clearly the Bible could not be used as a justification for the slavery in our nation's history. No, that was a product of your gods, reason and logic.

But I digress, here I am expecting rationality from someone who quotes Mein Kampf to bolster his anti-Christian bigotry. We'll just let those points stand as a testament to your horrifying stupidity.

At least you've conceded your original argument upon entering this post: that America is not a democracy founded on Christian principles by Christian men.

Posted by: cowlove at June 4, 2009 5:34 PM

wow adam and cowlove, aplogetics galore. This part of the Bible applies to me, this part doesn't, Catholics aren't really Christians, slavery is a sin yet also was an economic "necessity" .

You are so deeply riddled in intellectual leapso of absurdity. You will do just about anything, provide any sort of rationalization for your backwards antiquated views.....It's clear you don't know waht reason and logic are and are incapable of applying them to everyday situations.

Hitler's "dabbles" in the occult are largely a myth. YOU look it up. Hollywood films and tv shows tend not to be accurate portrayals of history. You actually have to read something, and you actually have to think.

Honestly, you are the sad ones. Christianity is not compatible with democracy, equality or justice. These are American principles, not christian. Keep believing all the lies and myths your want. Keep deluding yourselves....i wish you good luck with that. If that's what you need to get by, so be it. Just keep your hate based religion out of my politics. Thanks.

Posted by: wingnutcracker at June 4, 2009 10:11 PM

RE: Posted by: wingnutcracker at June 4, 2009 - Various times

For someone who admonishes people to "read history", it looks like you've read d#mn little of it yourself.

I already know what your reply is gonna be, and frankly, I don't give a s#it - you are blinded by intolerance and hatred. Your buddy Wellstone who believes he's a ghost would call you "venomous".

We could start with the teachings of Christ himself - and the New Testament, but you're blind to that.

We could talk about the supposed "dark ages", and how the Catholic monastary system actually saved the writings of antiquity, and was the main force in the development of science, medicine, and agriculture.

We could talk about the Catholic Church and it's mandate to the monks, 'if the people come to you, teach them' - no wonder that Gutenberg printed a Bible when he developed the printing press.

We could talk about Copernicus, and his true relationship with the Church (hint - it wasn't the heliocentrism that got him into trouble).

We could talk about slavery through the ages, and the various times, cultures, and prevailing religions - and who objected, who didn't, and who still practices it today.

We could talk about the area where I'm from, where the Christian Abolitionist Movement (led mainly by the Quakers) established the Underground Railroad, and the 600,000 mainly Christian white Americans that died deciding the issue.

We could talk about Hitler, his almost unreadable book Mein Kampf, and the Nazi ideology that was intended to replace Christianity. A simplistic moron like you spouts off crap about "Gott Ist Mit Uns" - but do you know what it really means?

We could talk about the competing Communist ideology, and why the destruction of Christianity and the family is an important part of Socialist / Communist domination.

We could talk about the 100 million people that died over the last century, because of the rejection of religion, of moral values, and of God....and that's just from Communism, Socialism, and Fascism. Add abortion, and that number doubles.

We could talk about the Moslem domination of Spain for 8 centuries - and the destructive legacy that the Spanish brought to Christianity when they returned.

We could talk about King Jan Sobieski, and how he helped save Western civilization.

We could talk about how religion is getting stronger, not weaker, as our scientific and technical knowledge has grown.

We could talk about the faith of America's Founding Fathers - and how Christian values and ideals are woven into the very fabric of our nation and our society.

And, we can even talk about how not everybody out here on Moonbattery is a Christian - believe it or not, we actually have room for lots of diverse thought out here, including a few regular posters that are Jews and Atheists.

Yes, we could talk about a lot of things - but in your case, I have already wasted a lot more time than a sorry, deluded, pathetic piece of grabastic, disorganized amphibian feces like you is worth. Your failure to see the light is your problem - it is your job to fix your life, not mine.

I hope you wake up and get a clue before it's too late.

Have a nice day.

Posted by: TonyD95B at June 5, 2009 12:54 AM

Tony, you can talk about whatever you want. Doesn't make it true.

Just because I'm pointing out that your relgion is crap, doesn't mean I'm a bigot. If you believe in nonsense, that is your perogitive. I don't aim to stop you believing whatever crap you want to. It's when you start telling ME, I have to accept your superstitons when dealing with "real life" issues that i have a problem.

As I mentioned before, just keep it out of public policy and politics. I frankly don't care what ridiculous belief system you hold.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 5, 2009 2:23 AM

Tony, excellent points.
You offer reason, logic, and an excellent knowledge of history (Even better than mine, and I have a B.A. in History), all wingnutcracker offers, as usual, are ample doses of hatred, cynicism, ignorance, and blatant denial of simple facts that don't mesh with his worldview (i.e. dismissing our arguments as 'Apologetics,' as if that somehow removes the validity of our points), which ironically enough are the very things he tries in vain to accuse us of.

Posted by: Adam at June 5, 2009 4:55 AM

Posted by: wingnutcracker at June 4, 2009 10:11 PM

The only thing anyone could garner from that is that you've given up reasonable discussion in favor of ignorance and repetition of your original, yet already dismissed, talking points.

Your entire reason for even beginning to comment here was to assert that the United States was not built on Christian principles by Christian men. By your own admission, this is a laughably idiotic thing to believe. The only reason to engage someone like you is because that sort of tripe needs to loudly be shown to be false, lest revisionist historians like yourself succeed in throwing demonstrable facts down the memory hole. You and your ilk may have been able to delude yourselves, but I draw the line at absurd attempts to deny truth to others.

Thanks for stopping by and clarifying what a ridiculous bigot you are.

Posted by: cowlove at June 5, 2009 5:23 AM

cowlove, you have done nothing to prove in any way that America is founded on "Christian principles". The founding fathers were remarkably indifferent to religion at best, hostile at worst to it, given the time. Many of the founding fathers were quite critical of Christianity. Jefferson even attempted to write a version of the Bible taking all the supernatural crap out of it. Obviously that didn't catch on.

No mention of Christ in any of the important documents of the time is amazing given the fact that no one could write anything back then without offering praise to Jesus. A call for seperation of church and state No offial state religion, in a time when every nation had one.

. No, I'd say the founding fathers were anticipating a move away from Christianity.

The only thing you've offered is the same old apologetic rationalizations that have been used for years. That, and a lot of personal insults.

Nice.

Posted by: wingnutcracker at June 5, 2009 7:45 AM

cowlove, you have done nothing to prove in any way that America is founded on "Christian principles". The founding fathers were remarkably indifferent to religion at best, hostile at worst to it, given the time.

Except for the "deeply Christian people" (your words) involved with slavery, right?

No mention of Christ in any of the important documents of the time is amazing given the fact that no one could write anything back then without offering praise to Jesus.

Except the invoking of the Creator as the source of all men's equality and inalienable rights, right?

A call for seperation of church and state...

Except that doesn't appear anywhere in any of our founding documents, right?

By any standard, that's three strikes in one comment, and you're decidedly out.

Posted by: cowlove at June 5, 2009 8:29 AM

And just to hammer the point home for you...

“The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
~John Adams

“God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel”
~Benjamin Franklin

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests."
~Alexander Hamilton

“In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America’s many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations."
~John Hancock

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.”
~Patrick Henry

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
~Thomas Jefferson

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.”
~James Madison

“It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”
~George Washington

All this information is readily available if you cared one iota about knowledge and inquiry. Instead, you regurgitate lies over and over, never bothering to examine the truth.

Posted by: cowlove at June 5, 2009 8:43 AM

look, you're not gonna take my quotes seriously, and yet you throw a bunch of out of context quotes at me, and that's supposed to serve as some kind of proof? Jefferson said he was a Christian, Hitler said he was a Christian, everyone said they were a Christian...Three hundred years ago, if you openly declared yourself not a christian, you do realize, the rest of the Christians would pretty much make your life miserable or kill you eventually.The established church of England certainly didn't think Jefferson was a Christian...

This a big part of the problem, even people who call themselves christians can't agree on what exactly these incredible "values" and "principles" are, Some Christians think the Bible condones slavery, marrying multiple wives, killing non-believers. Some chirstians claim this is wrong. Some christians claim murder is justifiable, as is the case with doctor Tiller's murderer, who kills in a church no less! Some Christians, like Quakers, are pacifists. So calling yourself a christian is meaningless, in that it can mean whatever the hell you want it to mean. The only thing you seem to agree on is that everyone else is deservedly going to hell.

The fact that the founding fathers refrained from naming Jesus, and even used a term as ambivalent as"Creator" was revolutionary, and a step away from Christian norms. The fact that the founding fathers refrained form having a church authority oversee its activities, nor sought approval from religious figures was unheard of in the west. But you keep on dreaming your dream, as i said. But don't try to shove your random, arbitrary Christian logic into the public arena.

and one last thing, Dickhead, because that is ultimately what you are....This is from the first amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

Can't be an more clear distancing from the establishment of your God in any way as an authority over government proceedings or process.

You are such a dope, just because the phrase "seperation of church and state" doesn't appear in the Constitution, doesn't mean the concept isn't there.


Posted by: wingnutcracker at June 5, 2009 10:14 AM

and moron, you seem to want to have it both ways, You want to claim the founding fathers as christians, yet you will not accept that their enthusiasm for slavery had even the smallest thing to do with Christianity, even though the Bible makes direct reference to slavery and instructs us on how to carry it out. i know, I know, that part of the Bible doesn't count anymore, because you say so...

Do the ten commandments still apply? I wonder. Christians are eager to have them posted in schools, on courthouse walls, in government buildings....Not so eager to actually follow them though.

Posted by: wingnutcracker at June 5, 2009 10:50 AM

Heh, this is where you spin wildly into name-calling and more bigotry. Par for the course.

And as for wanting to "have it both ways:"

Are you seriously ignorant of the fact that it was deeply Christian people who perpetuated slavery in American [sic] and Europe?

and then you said

The founding fathers were remarkably indifferent to religion at best, hostile at worst to it, given the time. Many of the founding fathers were quite critical of Christianity.

So, clearly they were deeply Christian men if it suits you, yet they were nearly anti-Christian men if that suits you. And, when faced with the men's own thoughts and deeds, it's just a bunch of "context quotes." But your quotes from Mein Kampf are still OK, right? Sheesh, your mental gymnastics must be very tiring.

I anticipate more great things from you here. Don't disappoint!

Posted by: cowlove at June 5, 2009 11:28 AM

you spun wildly into name calling much more quickly then I.

so you claim the founding fathers were christians who founded the nation on the christian principles of slavery and subjugation then?

I also said that slavery was perpetuated by deeply religious people. As in, every slave owner and slave trader identified themselves as a christian. These are not neccisarily the same people as the founding fathers, Christianity was being practiced by Christian settlers in the new world long before America was conceived.

Your claim that Hitler was not a Christian, is not proven because I quote him from Mein Kampf claiming he is. This isn't the only place where Hitler calls himself a Christian, nor claims he is doing God's work. Hell, the Catholic church colluded with Hitler at the peak of his reign.

You seem to only want to respond to the points you think you have. earlier you claimed that the constitution did not support the idea of separation of church and state. This is enough to prove you don't know anything about what principles the country was founded on, and that you are wholly unqualified to provide reasonable argument for your views. I'm finished with you.

Posted by: wingnutcracker at June 5, 2009 11:55 AM

In 1797, the United States Senate ratified a treaty with Tripoli that stated in Article 11:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.[25]

not sure it can be made any more clear to you. But you are thick as a brick....so i don't expect much, except some bullshit off handed toss off.

Posted by: wingnutcracker at June 5, 2009 11:58 AM

he is just sweet talker
lol

Posted by: sm at June 5, 2009 12:04 PM

RE: Posted by: wingnutcracker at June 5, 2009 11:55 AM

'Cracker says, "I'm finished with you."

That's Moonbat for, "I have no idea what I'm talking about, and people are starting to point out all the incorrect, contradictory, illogical and made-up things I'm saying, so I'll pick up what few marbles I have left and go home".

Mo you won't. It's just not in your nature to do that.

Posted by: TonyD95B at June 5, 2009 12:05 PM

you spun wildly into name calling [sic] much more quickly then [sic] I.

Please. I called out your idiotic reasoning. If you want to deduce that I called you an idiot, I can see how you would arrive at that conclusion. I could always just take your preferred tact and outright refer to you as "moron," or "dickhead." Maybe that would be more acceptable to someone of high standards like yourself.

so you claim the founding fathers were christians who founded the nation on the christian principles of slavery and subjugation then?

Try to stay with me here. I pointed out that the Founding Fathers were Christians, and you agreed, as long as you could call them slave-owners. Yet, when we get to the business at hand of creating the United States of America, suddenly they become anti-Christian and irreligious. You can't have it both ways, much as you'd like to.

I also said that slavery was perpetuated by deeply religious people.

Yes, of many faiths, and some of no faith at all. They all used your tin gods, logic and reason, to justify their acts.

As in, every slave owner and slave trader identified themselves as a christian.

Demonstrably and demonstrated already to be false. There you go again, lying.

These are not neccisarily [sic] the same people as the founding fathers, Christianity was being practiced by Christian settlers in the new world long before America was conceived.

I see. Now you'd like me to believe that the Founding Fathers were a small group of men, raging against the religious customs of their fellow patriots, denouncing Christianity and striving for secularity. Good thing that's already been shown to be false, by the men's own words and deeds no less!

Your claim that Hitler was not a Christian, is not proven because I quote him from Mein Kampf claiming he is. This isn't the only place where Hitler calls himself a Christian, nor claims he is doing God's work. Hell, the Catholic church colluded with Hitler at the peak of his reign.

Guess what, wingnutcracker, I'm a liberal now. I still believe in freedom and small government, but I'm a liberal. I want marriage to remain between a man and a woman, but I'm a liberal. I want an end to abortion, but I'm a liberal. Do you see what I just did there?

Do you get a lot of support for your arguments from Hitler's writings? That's quite disconcerting.

You seem to only want to respond to the points you think you have. earlier you claimed that the constitution did not support the idea of separation of church and state.

It clearly doesn't, because the idea is never enumerated, not once. The First Ammendment specifically curtails the power of the federal government from interfering in religious matters and instituting a State religion, nothing more, nothing less. It is only your intellectual dishonesty (read: lies) that allows you to extrapolate beyond that very simplistic and clear structure.

This is enough to prove you don't know anything about what principles the country was founded on, and that you are wholly unqualified to provide reasonable argument for your views. I'm finished with you.

Sure, thanks for providing an amusing look at the thought patterns and logic of a stereotypical leftist. I was hoping you wouldn't disappoint, and you certainly didn't.

Posted by: cowlove at June 5, 2009 12:24 PM

so why would you say you were liberal when you weren't? Why would Hitler claim to be Christian when he wasn't? Who are you to say he wasn't? The Pope thought he was good enough.

Tell me what Hitler did that contradicts the Christian values you hold so dearly.

Posted by: wingnutcracker at June 6, 2009 3:46 AM

RE: Posted by: wingnutcracker at June 6, 2009 3:46 AM

"Tell me what Hitler did that contradicts the Christian values you hold so dearly."

You CANNOT be serious.......you just want to keep flailing away with your continued statements that Hitler was a Christian. You aren't fooling anybody.

Try reconciling your belief that Hitler was a Christian (he was born Catholic) with this:


Goebbels, Nazi Minister of Propaganda, noted:

"The Fuhrer is deeply religous, though completely anti-Christian. He views Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race... Both [Judaism and Christianity] have no point of contact to the animal element, and thus, in the end, they will be destroyed."


But don't take Albert's word for it - here's the man himself:

"You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"

(Adolf Hitler, quoted by Albert Speer, p. 96, William L. Shirer, Inside the Third Reich.)


You're probably saying, "but, but....Hitler SAID he was a Christian!" Yes, when trying to convert a mainly Catholic and Lutheran nation (Germany) from Christianity to National Socialist paganism, the wolf occasionally had to don sheep's clothing. It's not a difficult concept to grasp, and it's well documented - I can't understand why you can't grasp it. It also blinds you from seeng when the same simple trick is used by others.

I guess the irony of these two quotes hasn't sunken in yet, so I suggest you go re-read them....particularly the first one from Goebbels.

What you are oblivious to is the fact that YOU have a lot more in common with Hitler than anyone on the political Right, or these Christians that YOU are Hell-bent (and I say that sincerely) on persecuting.

Earlier you accused me (and sevral others) of trying to somehow "force" our beliefs on you. Again, you miss the point - the only reason any of us even remotely care what you believe is out of a sense of Christian charity - it's a shame you're going the wrong way in life.

But as I told you before, your failure to see the light is your problem - it is your job to fix your life, not mine.

You are always talking about Hitler - no wonder. The views you have posted in this thread are in direct alignment with his - and you are too stupid to even see it.

To repeat what I said before:

I hope you wake up and get a clue before it's too late.

Have a nice day.

Posted by: TonyD95B at June 6, 2009 9:49 AM

Just for the record, almost all the founding fathers were neither christian nor atheist, but plain old deists which is pretty much the same thing as an agnostic. For every quote ya'll have of them supporting the christian faith you could find one of them saying its nonsense and has no place in politics.

Also, when they're refering to god in many of those quotes, they don't mean the christian god, they mean some creator that we have no knowledge of.

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Posted by: zeitgeistmovie.com at June 12, 2009 2:23 AM