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Van shouldn't be believing anything the nytimes prints is a form of dementia? :)

Wow, NYT offering opinions on religion? Maybe 20 years ago when that festering liberal media was still relevant I could have been insulted, now it's just like shutting your window to barkin dogs at night.

Re item #1, so the right supports women?

30 Republican Senators (all male) voted against an Al Franken amendment to a defense appropriations bill that would prevent the federal government from funding contractors whose employee contracts prevent workers from pursuing allegations of rape against co-workers.

Limit all US politicians to two terms.

One in office

One in prison

Illinois already does this!

Huh. #3 is rather interesting these days... between finding Ardi, filling in a key gap in the fossil record, and then this little gem, proving once and for all that the Bible is NOT magic...

Yeah, religion gets to be called 'dementia' folks... get used to it. Only gonna get harder to ignore all those 'facts' as time goes on and those facts continue to mount up...

At what point do you jesus-based loonies finally get on the science bandwagon? You are clearly not about to stop using things like computers, nuclear power, etc etc... but when that same method gets in the way of your bizzare fantasies about magic-sky-father... you just decide that THAT science.... isn't real?

Weak. And once again, legitimately called 'dementia'.

Salad please put a link up so we can go read about the alleged gangrape.

Meth I have three words for you: Theory of Evolution, you're welcome.

Sally Out West ... good catch. I saw that article as well. More of the same "pay no attention to what WE are doing... lets just misconstrue liberal attitudes and move on".

Farmer Ted chimes in with... what, exactly?

Is there a point hidden in your sentence fragment, or are you just having word-vomit issues again?

Meh, you think worshipping Obama or the Green movement is a better idea? Besides far from all Conservatives take the bible litterally and it shouldn't be, as my pastor says. See it as values, lessons and stories to give you insight on how it has to be understood. When I hear about Jesus multiplying bread and fish, I don't see a lightning bolt striking the baskets and him chanting a spell, as Liberals seem to think (Because Libs are unable to think further than the first degree), I see Jesus finding enough food for everyone and making sure everyone gets their share. Besides, I'd much rather believe in a benevolent god to keep myself humble and honest than finding values in theft, lies and communism.

I'm not a religious person by any means.

Although, I do not see a reason to berate those who believe in a higher power. Faith allows people to cope with society, as a whole, for all the little things that make it good and bad.

I see no problem with people keeping faith as their moral compass to do good for the world.

If you have no religion, it's not my immediate instinct to hate you. Unfortunately, as you continue to throw insults at those who like having a point of reference for their lives and situations around them, you prove that you are one of the intolerant people that deserves little to no respect.

Article

Note that Ms. Jones testified before the Senate committee.

Here's the problem with that, AtC (and it is a widespread occurence, by no means limited to the select few crazies we play with here)...

If you get to say "there was this guy who started this movement, and it is Divine, and it is Infallible, and He is Omnipotent, and He tells me to ... Do Things", then SO DO THE REALLY, REALLY CRAZY (especially Islamic) people.

Only when we as a country are willing to say "Look, Athena did not spring forth from Zeus' head, Odin is not in charge of thunder and lightning, and Jesus is NOT MAGIC" can we finally work on taking a hard-line stand against radical Islam.

For the moment, they can simply say "see, we are doing the same thing you are doing; making baseless assertions about the moral rightness of our actions, based on an ancient book of nonsense".

And they're right.

It is possible (I would argue a far MORE likely possibility) to both be anti-religion and moral. In fact, if you actually READ the bible, it is full of incredibly stupid, violent things. If we watched you (or anyone at all, for that matter) 24/7 and applied written biblical law, I guarantee you would be stoned to death. I guess you have no problems with that?

Look, either you think the bible is literal truth (which makes you a moron) or you think, as you appear to, that it is NOT literal truth... but somehow still think it adds some sort of value to society. I would contend that it does not.

People who think that "faith" is a reasonable way to make decisions are people who are also capable of blowing up buildings and thinking they are 'right' to do so. Scary, scary stuff... "dementia".

Meth you can't understand three simple words? And you call us knuckle-draggers? Ok.
Sally thank you for the link,I'll give a look.

Meh, please take the time to read my post.

Meth most Christians use the Bible a guide to help them when times are bad and to help guide them in their daily lives. Obviously you've never read the Bible so you really have no basis to talk about it.

Posted by: Sally Out West at October 8, 2009 12:27 PM

The outrage over Polanski's child rape didn't come from the left.

Besides, this doesn't have to be framed as a left/right issue.

People who love freedom support the rights of Women. Statists believe that government should have the power to enforce societally-determined stereotypes, be they related to race, gender, income, or another factor.

Why is it that the left creates a PC uproar over every remark in the US that could possibly be interpreted in even a mildly misogynistic way, while at the same time preaching "tolerance" towards totalitarian states that oppress women and treat them as property? The left's priorities are screwed.

I'm glad I'm not alone thinking that way Farmer Ted. These are values that have been proven right for over a millenia. Anyone with a thinking head doesn't see spells and magic but values and stories. Jesus used imagery to make himself better understood by the crowds, like every teacher does. I simply find it a mature way of thinking to believe that something out there is higher than you are, it gives you something as a reference and a guide. As for Sally, I to agree that a woman's right is not a question of politics but simply common sense.

Excuse me, SOME on the left supported Polanski but I, and many others on the left did not and we were not at all shy about blasting those who thought that "genius" meant a free pass for child rape. It doesn't.

As for totalitarian states, that's one of our dilemmas in Afghanistan. We all know what will happen if the allied forces pull out and the Taliban take over again. Afghani women will suffer, and badly.

Farmer Ted: False. You are exactly the sort of "dumb religious" that I am talking about. You appear to freely admit that the Bible is NOT literal truth... so where's the conflict with things like evolution? Science has a giant, ever-growing mountain of data... you have a talking snake in a tree. If it is not a talking snake in a tree ("I don't see a lightning bolt striking the baskets and him chanting a spell") then WHAT IS IT?

Until you can man up and admit that the radical islamists are doing the EXACT SAME THING YOU ARE (ascribing maginc properties to an archaic book), the people here in reality will go ahead and laugh at you.

Jay - You can do better than that(I hope). "These are values that have been proven right for over a millenia" ... is this the part where I point out that those "values" involve stoning people to death for eating meat on Friday? That in the Bible, slavery is OK? That the Bible gets the value of pi wrong, teaching generations of people the 'value' of being stupid?

Pepole like you idealize 'christianity' all to hell and gone, glossing over the FACT that if you actually READ the book, it is full of truly horriffic things. So what is it a reference/guide for? The crazy stuff? The good stuff? Why can ew not get rid of it entirely, acceopt that there is not Force guarding the light at the end of the tunnel, and actually try to improve REAL things here on Earth, udsgin REAL solutions?

False hope is weakness. Embracing "faith" as a basis for your life makes you no better than the building-exploding crazies. It is all the same premise.

"Meh at October 8, 2009 12:34 PM"

What makes you think that evolution ISN'T part of GOD'S plan?

And while we're on the subject of "anti-science", how's the Liberals' campaign against NUCLEAR POWER and SPACE EXPLORATION coming?

For Sally Out West:

If you Liberal women hadn't bought into the VICTIMHOOD lie, you would not need the Federal government to hold your hands and change your diapers every time some man looks "wrong" at you.

As I recall, back in the nintys some "liberated" women tried to get a law passed in Washington state that would have outlawed a man from LOOKING at a woman for more than THREE SECONDS.

Meth I really think you need help with your hated of Christians. I for one don't go to church and follow no real denomination but I will tell you a quick story that galvanized my belief in God and Jesus. When I was 12 my dad came to me and told me that my grandfather had only a few days to live. The doctors had told my grandmother to make sure my grandpa's affairs were in order. I prayed to God to please let my grandpa live. I prayed day after day, guess what meth? He lived for another 12 years. You see when you have faith in God he does answer your prayers. Does it happen all the time? No. What you lack meth is the compassion to allow yourself to believe that there is a God. You're just a scared little boy and like a little kid you see nothing more important than yourself. I call that a pretty pathetic exisitence.

Meh, I am talking about things like loving one another, sharing, thinking of others, forgiving. Please put things in context, back then, slavery had always existed, so those who compiled these texts weren't maniacally laughing as they put it down, they did so because it was like talking about their negro servants, should it have been written in the 1800's. In a hundred years, our social conventions today will disgust people in the future. Don't take all the details of a story, take the values and lessons learned from it. Then again, I am not an extremist and I wish you no ill for thinking otherwise. I simply ask you to see things in the larger picture, not bask in details. I am sure when you read a story to your kids, you aren't hoping they believe there are three piggies building homes from a wolf, but you hope they understand the lesson about hard work and teamwork.

KHarn, read the link I provided regarding the attack on Ms. Jones at 12:47.

Tell me all about VICTIMHOOD. Did the men who attacked her "look at her wrong"??

You folks that don't think faith in Jesus is real. I ate a Florida navel orange so tell me this. What did it taste like? Not what another orange tastes like but the one I ate. If you have never tasted faith in Jesus don't try to tell others about something you know nothing about.

KHarn -

The simple answer: There is NO DATA TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM.

See how that's different than hundreds of thousands of artifacts, bones, anthropological data points...

You can say "we do not know the source of t=0", that is a reasonable thing to say. But you have NO data points upon which to rest that tired "What makes you think that evolution ISN'T part of GOD'S plan?" point.

Why does there need to be god in there? We have no evidence for it. You are that same guy who back in the day would have explained lightning as Thor's Will. (Was that necessary? Or do you STILL think lightning is Thor's Will?) Or that same guy who would have been demanding the death of Copernicus for, you know, being smarter than you and figuring out ACTUAL truth. (You think the world is flat? That "observing factual reality" is somehow bad?)

As far as the rest, Nuke power needs more work done on spent fuel... conservatives bitch and moan CONSTANTLY about the Obama deficit being "bad for the future generations" or "mortgaging our children's futures" (which is NOT necesarily true. Could be, but is unlikely to actually be bad, long-term). BUT... spent fuel rods will be lethally toxic for tens of thousands of years. So yeah, deficits bad for future, spent uranium... soemhow NOT bad? The research is ongoing. When it hits on something workable, that'll be that. (Wait.... that's 'science'... maybe we should wait for god to figure it out for us, huh?)

Oh, and we have more probes zooming around the solar system, and more telescopes trained to the heavens, than ever before. Resulting in far more data points each day than any point in human history. With more coming online all the time. Where exactly do you get your "data"?

All sorts of the same low-functioning brains, reaching the same fallacious conclusions, based on the same 'because that's what i was told' reasoning.

Meth you obviously aren't reading or aren't understanding our posts so why don't you just go play with your new obama inflate a date and let the grownups talk.

Jay -

The difference of course being that the 3 pigs don't advocate the violent conversion of all other pigs (conversion to radioactive vapor, if some of your team had their way)...

Want morality? Aesops Fables are a great place to start. WAY less evil in there than in the bible. And no need for magic, no need for explosives... in fact, a far better place to base one's life, overall.

Tell me I'm wrong. (I know you will, I'm just curious to see how you'll spin it...)

Meth you've never read the bible so how do you even know what it says? Oh that's right somebody told you.

Farmer -

I have. Several times, in fact. The KJ version, the Ryrie Study version... I am an 'educated consumer'. There was NOTHING in the bible that actually rang true, beyond the historical value of the geography/geopolitics. But magic enlightenment? Not even close. Care to try it? I know it is far more difficult, since we have more than 1 source to read... but I can recommend a few hundred books full of science, if you want.

See how, once again, that works out? You have 1 fallacious source. We have the aggregate value of human knowledge.

I like ours better.... but you can go pray to Thor all you want if it makes you feel better about your chances with lightning.

Meh, people on the Left have this nearly-universal false belief that because they don't have Jesus, they don't have a religion.

Enviromentalism/global warming/social justice/global justice is every bit as much of a religion as the established ones, with all of the original sin, pennance, redemption, and salvation myths.

He who believes that Group A's ancestors wrecked the planet, leading to a near-term catastrophe, which can only be averted through undoing the sin by using mercury-stuffed CFCs, buying carbon credits while flying first class, giving some cash and goodies to Group B, talking about feeling guilty and taking small symbolic actions to feel better, and so on, are as religious as the religious Right they mock daily. It's just that this new religion is a monstrosity of lies rather than a multi-millenial time-tested moral system for building strong families and having a meaningful life.

As Darwin would put it, all you have done is make slight functional adaptations to religion in order to fit the times of this generation, which is, namely, post-industrial decadence. Left-wing enviro-religion is a mutation of religious systems which may or may not last, but is just a continuation of the search for significance.

The choice is not God versus Darwin. Evolution and religion fit well together. The choice is only between systems that provide guidance and satisfaction versus systems that produce decadent emptiness.

"Salad please put a link up so we can go read about the alleged gangrape."

Ted, why not just read the damn news like most people? Seriously! You'd have much more creditability in pointing out a false statement instead of demanding proof of what most literate people already know. With today's technology, you could have just as quickly proven Sally wrong as asking her to do your research for you. Does you mom still dress you in the mornings?

Except I wasn't wrong.

Ouch mega. You clearlty missed the part where i demonstrated pretty conclusivelty that if you actually READ the bible it is in no way a "time-tested moral system for building strong families and having a meaningful life". There might be some of that, but there is also retribution, ignorance, slavery, greed, and self-righteous insanity. Don't even try to pretend that there isn't - that'd be a really hard sell.

I'm no enviro-kook, I have no real support for specific causes (beyond enjoying rational thought instead of madness, I suppose), and to be fair am just as critical of CO2-crazies as jesus-based zealots. It is all the same crap.

Recent science says (and it makes sense) that CO2 levels are essentially irrelevant. But that doesn't mean all environmentalism is bad. Unlike jesus-religion, the earth is ACTUALLY REAL. Therefore, talking about its long-term care is relevant. Adds credibility when I can interact with it, huh?

So, one final time: you can shoehorn 'god' into evolution because it is (as yet) incomplete. But lightning used to be 'god' too. Do you think it still is?

At what point will someone take that step back and admit that "yeah, you're right. everything we have ascribed to religion has clung in society only until proven completely baseless. Then we just move the goalposts and try again".

Meh, I'm not looking for a fight here and I do not see forced conversions in the bible either. I do agree, Aesop's fables are great, my daughter read Lafontaine's fables in her french class in college, it's pretty amazing what gems there are in there. I'm simply advising you to see the bible for its values, keeping the social and historical context. It's very easy for someone who hasn't experienced faith to dismiss it as superstitions. Instead, think of your cherished parental figure, did you admire your father or mother in a special way? Did you sometimes think "What would mom or dad would do here?" When you get a great advice and it saves you in a situation, do you find yourself thinking "Thanks mom" or "Thanks dad"? Again, I don't want to fight with you, because faith can't be debated, it can only be explained. Besides, mega summed it up really well here. "The choice is not God versus Darwin. Evolution and religion fit well together. The choice is only between systems that provide guidance and satisfaction versus systems that produce decadent emptiness." It is satisfying to have scientific explanations but faith is heartwarming. A man without faith in the desert and a practical mind will see his water deplete and calculate he won't have more than another day to walk. A man with faith will find strenght against odds and yes, faith does help finding strenght out of despair or when the odds are against you.

Without God, all moral values are equally valid.

I agree Sally, you weren't wrong. That's why Ted threw in the distraction. That was my point.

False hope is OK with you... but not with me. It is FAR HARDER to admit that there isn't an easy solution to life's great questions... but pretending that jesus is the answer, just so you can stop looking and feel all warm and fuzzy inside is EXACTLY WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT.

Follow:

You are aware, I assume, that islamoberzerkers are not hearing god's will.. yes? You agree with that?

You will further stipulate that they THINK that they are getting that warm fuzzy feeling of 'faith' when they put on that bomb-belt-thing?

So... add the one to the other, and YOUR MIDSET ENABLES THEIRS.

That's all i'm saying. You get a warm fuzzy feeling, but if you pretend that feeling is meaningful, they can too. And if you don't like their conclusions... then JOIN ME. Remove that midset as a valid way to live life. Really THINK about things rather than accepting on blind faith.

Trust me. It is far harder to do, but the satisfaction with one's place in the universe is more fulfilling when it is based on reason instead of faith.

"minDset" several times. damn sticky 'n' key.

I agree Sally, you weren't wrong. That's why Ted threw in the distraction. That was my point.

"You are aware, I assume, that islamoberzerkers are not hearing god's will.. yes? You agree with that?

You will further stipulate that they THINK that they are getting that warm fuzzy feeling of 'faith' when they put on that bomb-belt-thing?"

That does sound exactly like "dementia" to me...

Meh... my God asks me to love one another as He loves each of us, including you. Islamic extremists believe the only sin that can't be forgiven is disbelief, thus they can kill, rape, use dirty tricks, subversion and use human shields. My God tells me not to be affraid when I walk the valley of death, theirs promise them virgins if they they die in his name. When you are alone and affraid for yourself, it is always good, even if not immediately gratifying, to remember you are watched and someone out there can be proud of you if you show strenght and go on. I do wish you could experience it, thus you could give us your input, instead of putting every kinds of religious folks in the same basket. Some will want to read the bible as its litteral truth, some will learn from it. Some will not want anything but prayers, forsaking medicine, others will realise their own limits. God isn,t out there just waiting for you to do something stupid and bail you out. He shows you the way and hopes you can use it to its best. Don't see Him as a magical thing that keeps sending you neon signs like "Do that, kill this, dress like that!" but as a guide who gives you spiritual tools to achieve the best for yourself.

God could be replaced in that paragraph, in every instance, with "my own intellect", and it would read a lot better... and there would be no way to subvert it into blowing-shit-up insanity. Know why? PERSONAL MORALITY. Like magic, only real.

Why is it that there are so many weak-willed people out there, who insist on ascribing any inner strangth to a magic outside 'other'?

Whatever. Trying to point out that their crazies are doing the same thing you are doing is not working well. The faithful are called a "flock" for a reason...

The good news: Not everyone thinks like you. We are still making progress as a species. And with each successive data point, whether religious types "killing in the name of..." or science revealing actual truths about our universe, it will get more and mroe difficult to brainwash successive generations into forsaking rational thought for archaic feel-goodery.

I'm sorry Meh, I don't wish to pursue this topic with you further, as I told you, Faith is experienced, not debated, you are amply proving why. I made my case, which you rebuke with your own points. At this time, I doubt we can achieve a consensus if you are so hostile to the idea of believing in anything but yourself.

I find it quite ironic Meh feels the need to equate Christians with fundamentalist Muslims. Is this not the same Meh who I recall eqauted human lives to mere "data points"?

In the abscence of faith and a moral core (which can also be atheist), the void that is left is filled with nihilism. Meh, point in case.

Bolshevik Jews have utterly destroyed the USA. Who do you think invented the Cultural Marxism, Critical Theory, Socialism, etc., that you complain about daily? It's ludicrous for you to support the Jews.

When will you hold Israel accountable? Are you happy being enslaved to the Globalist J Bankers?

You guys are close, but you still have a ways to go.

So God can be replaced by the phrase "my intellect"? Let's do a little experiment, shall we Meh?

"And then my intellect said 'let there be light' and there was light."

Sorry, it doesn't work for me; however, I'm sure many a narcissist would be just fine with it.

how? -> science
why? -> religion

Once you get that, Meh, it's all much clearer. No amount of "how" will ever produce a "why", or vice versa.

Anyway, your thesis that the world is advancing from archaic feel-goodery to rationalism is wrong, on two levels. First, it's just factually wrong; religious zealots are sweeping across the planet, with secular westernism being backed into an ever-smaller corner - read up lately on the "no go" zones across France, for instance? Second, the notion of the evolution of mankind toward some higher ideal of progress or rational thought is just ridiculous. That silly idea itself is an archaic, 18th century narcissistic fantasy. We are, of course, not progressing toward anything, but fighting a constant battle of small adaptations in a hostile, ever-changing environment. That is Darwinian chess, versus the simple-minded checkers of people getting better together. What's clear is that Islam provides the animus for, oh, what is it now, 1.4 billion people to pour across the planet in conquest. It'll take a lot more than dumping stale old myths and legends to survive that onslaught. Ironically, it seems like those with the strongest faith win, despite the hundreds of years invested in proclaiming rationalism the winner.

Nice, mega. I was thinking the same thing about Meh's claim that humanity was on a consistent trajectory of progress. Sorry, but I think there's plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Wow!! You can't swing a dead cat around without hitting a bigoted, mean spirited Left-Leaning Letterman-Loving Low Life Lizard Like Lobotomized Lemming Like Liberal Loser on this freakin' thread......

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

2 Timothy 3:1-5
But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power.

Sounds like St. Paul is describing Meh, doesn't it, Jimbo?

It does, Judith.

Especially the "...unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty,..." part.

Andywuss I merely asked for the link to the point she was making. It's easy to say something on the internet and not have proof. Now I realize that you and meth think of yourselves as superior intellectual people but personally I think you're just a couple of unhappy people who don't have anything better to do then bitch at Christians because they have an inner peace you will never have. Sucks to be you.

You know what else I think is funny, Jimbo? Meh acts like he invented being skeptical of everything. For someone whose read the Bible multiple times, you'd think he might remember this nugget from 1 Thessalonians:

"Test everything; retain what is good."

Yeah, it really sounds like Christianity is asking for its adherents to believe whatever anyone tells them, doesn't it?

Posted by: Sally Out West at October 8, 2009 12:27 PM

Posted by: Meh at October 8, 2009 12:34 PM

Posted by: andy42302 at October 8, 2009 2:11 PM

Posted by: Anonymous at October 8, 2009 3:23 PM

Pathetic socialist idiots. Idiots I say!

Candyandy you are the biggest idiot of them all.

You guys represent the left?

BWAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!

You freaks are dillusional.

"Test everything; retain what is good."

I live by that scripture.

That one works for me too, V the K.

"Test" to me means, if someone challenges my point of view and I don't have an answer, then I need to put on the brakes and do some research.

At the start of this thread I posted about the Franken amendment and I was challenged to provide proof. I did. Of course some, like Dave, can only spew. Obviously people like that hide in their little boxes and test nothing.

By "Meh"'s standards, the left should be calling for the immediate removal of Obama from office, since he's clearly delusional and his beliefs help strengthen the radical Islamic terrorists who threaten our nation. After all, we've been told that Obama is a Christian, right? And anybody who believes in Jesus should be considered mentally feeble, right, Meh?

It is natural to seek religion. It is part of human nature. It is normal and reasonable. Good and evil are part of who we are, and yes, both are written about in the Bible because the Bible teaches man about his true nature. We can't eliminate evil, least of all through science, so we must fight it, as man has been doing throughout history. Believing in God is sane. Not believing in God is a form of dementia.

What is contrived and synthetic is the attempt to eliminate religion, worship, and belief in a supernatural God. Rationalism, scientism, materialism, evolutionism, etc., are limited and limiting; they are sterile and ultimately destructive because they take a single half-truth (reason), exaggerate it and then run with it, disrupting the balance of proper thinking. These things are the demented things because they are not intellectually sufficient or satisfying for the normal human mind that seeks wisdom more than cleverness.

Christians who believe in a God who made them free will never see a science that binds our existence as a finer philosophy. Christians who believe that they have a choice in their after-life will never see a finer philosophy in a science that says our future is determined for us by some sterile machinery. This is because Christianity is large, and science/rationalism is small -- and believers can never slip into the dull safety of science alone when they have looked upon the wonderful vision of real liberty.

GKC on Catholicism: "It would be far truer to say that the Faith gives man back his body and his soul and his reason and his will and his very life. It would be far truer to say that the man who has received it receives all the old human functions which all the other philosophies are already taking away. It would be nearer to reality to say that he alone will have freedom, that he alone will have will, because he alone will believe in free will; that he alone will have reason, since ultimate doubt denies reason as well as authority; that he alone will truly act, because action is performed to an end. It is at least a less unlikely vision that all this hardening and hopeless despair of the intellect will leave him at last the only walking and talking citizen in a city of paralytics."

lvb-rocks at October 8, 2009 10:13 PM

Great post, Rocks.

Very basically, you point out that FREE WILL is the basis of THE Judeo-Christian God. And God is available only to those who freely and sincerely seek Him. If I may repeat from an earlier post in this thread... Hebrews 11:6.

I think that's why liberals hate God. God must be freely and sincerely sought. Silly liberals not only know nothing of spiritual freedom or sincerity - they get pissy because thinking people don't recognize Obama as gawd.

*sigh*

Libs are over the edge and far, far, far gone.

"Test everything; retain what is good."
Judith M.
Wonderful. Meh, I am sure even you, seeking conflict would agree that this quote in particular sums up maturity in religion and looking for what's good.

Oh my God, it stinks in this room. Who let what in?

Meh, someone as hateful, bigoted, and obnoxious as you has no right to lecture us on the Christian faith, as you clearly don't know squat about it (Which is the case for most ultra- liberals who like to bash Christians). I know for a fact that Christianity is real, that Jesus was indeed the Son of God, and that He listens to our prayers. If you saw or experienced half the things I have, you'd probably come to the same conclusion. Of course, that's assuming you were willing to let yourself out of the hateful, cynical little bubble you live in, which isn't likely to happen, based on your past post.
No, Meh, believing in God is NOT dementia. I have seen firsthand how it can transform people and really change them for the better, myself included. Ten years ago, I called myself a Christian, but didn't really follow Christ at all. Now, however, I am in my third year of classes at seminary, on my way to one day becoming a pastor, so I can hopefully help inspire people to live for God, show love and mercy to their fellow man, and truly let Christ shine through them.

Good Heavens, Meh, you do enjoy flaunting your ignorance of the history of Christianity, the composition and interpretation of the Bible (both Old and New Testaments), and what and how Christians actually believe. A few examples will suffice:

Or that same guy who would have been demanding the death of Copernicus for, you know, being smarter than you and figuring out ACTUAL truth.

Did you mean Galileo? Copernicus, a Polish monk, had posited heliocentrism a century before Galileo, and the Church didn't utter a word of protest. In fact, he dedicated his book championing heliocentrism to the Pope, who received it warmly.

Gallileo, however, did run afoul of Church authorities, though not because he championed heliocentrism, but because he taught it as fact when it could not yet be proven (the telescopes of the day were not strong enough), and because many of his theories in support of heliocentrism (circular vs. elliptical orbits, for example) were, in fact, demonstrably wrong. Still, this all would have been a rather unremarkable academic squabble had Galileo not managed along the way to alienate everyone on all sides of the debate with his big mouth - even those (the Jesuits, primarily) who agreed with him. He signed a pledge to Church authorities (he was teaching in a Catholic university) that he would not teach heliocentrism as fact until such time came that it could be proven, then turned around and did it anyway. However, no one ever "demanded" his death; he was never tortured and never put in prison. He was sentenced to house arrest in his country villa in the Italian countryside. Thomas Huxley, a 19th century agnostic, after studying the case, declared "The Church had the better argument."

These are facts, i.e. something you claim to value in the abstract but in every case ignore in the particular.

Science has a giant, ever-growing mountain of data... you have a talking snake in a tree.

...and the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Scientific explorations have discovered much about how the world and its various forms of life came to be. The Genesis "creation" account (aside from the curious fact that it gets the order of the appearance of various entities right, as confirmed by science) is an account of the history of man's relationship with God. I, along with scientists such as Stephen Barr, Kenneth Miller, and the entire Pontifical Academy of Sciences, have no problem whatsoever with science nor with evolution by natural selection.

The problem for atheists is this: Even if you grant the status of truth to each and every tenet of physics, chemistry, biology, and Darwinism (that is, evolution by natural selection, excluding the theologically immature claims attached to it by many of its adherents and even its formulator) - even the tenets that have not been proven, as well as the ones that may never be proven - one still has not moved one one-thousandth of a micron toward dispensing with God as creator and designer of the universe, nor has one remotely accounted for all the traits of the strange creature known as man. Atheistic writers seem to know this, and such luminaries as Dawkins, Dennett, and Stenger have absolutely embarrassed themselves trying to explain away (or deny the existence of) such things as free will (Stenger), altruism (Dawkins), and consciousness (all three), the continuing human proclivity for religious belief (Dawkins and Dennett; "Memes", fellas? Seriously?), or why anything exists at all (Stenger, though the other 2 whiff at it too), all while (as you) displaying a profound ignorance of the very thing they attack.

It is possible (I would argue a far MORE likely possibility) to both be anti-religion and moral.

The modern assertion that one can dispense with the Christian worldview and build a moral society on human reason and rationality alone (I say 'modern', as 19th century atheist Nietzsche persuasively argued otherwise, which led to his formulation of a new "morality" stemming from a "will to power" to create a post-moral "super-man"), while an attractive alternative to many, has no empirical data as evidence to support the claim that such a society would result in anything else than mass murder and re-education/concentration camps. Reason and rationality, when divorced from the conviction that each person is made in God's image, and therefore possesses immutable dignity and human rights, has not failed in human history to morph into a pragmatism that views the value of a human person as a measure of his utility to those in power, either by his contribution or by his elimination. Not a single atheistic or neo-pagan regime in history has failed to follow this template, the logical conclusion of which is a society that cannibalizes its own citizens and leaves its country in ruin.

I would love to dissect your rather silly attempts at biblical exegesis, but the above will do for now.

Take care,

GR

"Sally Out West at October 8, 2009 1:36 PM"

You know damn well that "NOW" and other "liberated" organizations are AGAINST women who practice self-defence. I have read articals about women who have defended themselves against rape and beatings by shooting, or just THREATENING to shoot where the "liberated" ones called the women a TRAITORS.

This is AMERICA, you should do things for yourself.

"You will further stipulate that they THINK that they are getting that warm fuzzy feeling of 'faith' when they put on that bomb-belt-thing?"
"That does sound exactly like "dementia" to me...
"Posted by: Szot at October 8, 2009 2:35 PM"

Agreed. But don't tell US, we've been saying that for YEARS; go tell THE MUSLIMS!

But I've been asking you Liberal idiots to do that for a long time, but you are too COWARDLY to even think about it.