« Comrade Obama's UN Speech, Cliff Notes Version | Main | ObamaCare Plan in Four Seconds »

We have had it with these rotten political hacks who put the needs of liberal special interests groups over the needs of the nation and its citizens we hope that next year they all get fired by JOHN Q. PUBLIC

Catchy tune. :-)

Hey... how did they make that crowd of only 75,001 look so big? *snicker*

Obama's pastor of 20 years says "God Damn America" - we say God Bless America. THAT is the biggest difference in him (them) and us.

Simple Jimbo, they took pictures from street level. To make a clear judgement about crowd size you need to know the square footage of the area occupied, the crowd density and have an aerial, that is, overhead, view.

Patriots as far as the eye can see in those photos...thousands and thousands, and nary a word from the so-called "news" media.

And yet, 30 Leftist idiots in one place is front-page and top story.

"as far as the eye can see" Yep, nearsightedness is a pain.

My eyes are good enough to see that the people in the back row of the 9/12 crowd are on the Mall at 3rd St.

Compare these two pictures:

9/12 Panorama

And picture #5 here:

Obama Inauguration

We have a problem.
After the silent majority (conservatives) throw out all the radical socialist liberals (democrats), what do we do with them?
We need some kind of guide as to how they should be cooked properly.
Where can I find a hippy cooking guide? Shouldn't it be published where everyone can see it?

There are two nitwits on this thread (so far). One has the initials Lao - rhymes with Mao. The other is less obvious.

Cleanup on aisle 6.

Awww....isn't that cute?!

Our Anony-trolls are at it again!!

EXCELLENT!! This is just the start libby's. WE SURROUND YOU!

COMPARE THESE TWO PICTURES, it's a matter of TRASH.

After the TRASH of the Obama Inauguration

After the respectful patriots of 912

THESE TWO PICS SAY IT ALL!

I Choose!

Lao,

You've asked these questions before and got an answer, and you refused to answer some of ours. You are trolling, or to put it another way, Dead. Horse. Flog.

btw - I haven't read any official statement that claims more people than that other event.

A better comparison. Obama on the left (of course), patriots on the RIGHT.

Aerial View

Notice gaps...

TED, is that 9/12?

(it's just that the sun wasn't shining that day on the pictures I saw and I think that might have been Promise Keepers.)

Anony, your mommy is calling, dinner is ready. Oh and remember to apply for a job this week.

Thanks for the honesty Stephan. You are absolutely right, the sun WASN'T shining on 9/12 and yes, the picture on the right IS the Promise Keepers. Proof? The Museum of the American Indian Building isn't in that picture.

But while you are looking at the aerial of the Obama Inauguration on the left, ask yourself this simple question. How could 9/12 have had more people in attendance when they didn't occupy the rest of the mall or space near the monument?

Oh and I missed responding to this:

"btw - I haven't read any official statement that claims more people than that other event."

Well who speaks for the 9/12 people to make it "official"? Glen Beck cited 1.7 million thanks to that bogus "university study" that I have already refuted.

Moonbattery cited that same study. Just sayin'.

The actual number of people that showed up for 9/12 is not important anyway.

What's important is that we have The Laotian tying himself in knots over it, and doing everything possible to minimize the signifigance of it.

Mission Accomplished!!!

Sorry TonyD. I have stated several times in other threads on this topic that I think the 9/12 march was very significant. I have agreed with those who say every protestor in attendance also represents the views of (pick a number) people who did not attend. I think it is important that the right has been able to organize this kind of response.

That said, do not expect me to sit by and allow absurdities like claims there were 1.7 million in attendance as a Moonbattery thread recently claimed. And notice above, people are still falling for that PromiseKeepers aerial shot and trying to claim that was 9/12. To his credit, Stephan called Ted out on his mistake.

Dude, you are extremely preoccupied with it......dangerously so.

You fancy yourself to be a wise and philosophical sort. From this thread and your other posts (using "Lao" and other names) you can't see the forest through the freakin' trees.....

The "Lao" moniker goes way back. I originally started using it in an online game.

As for "pre-occupied", I don't start these 9/12 threads, Moonbattery does. Like you, I am commenting.

Yeah but lao your the one doing the lieing. Is that an obamatron trait or just a scumbag trait?

Quote one of my "lies" FREE.

Lao,

Answer some questions... don't act all smug

Ok Stephan, post your question.

How many people in Sophie Elena's video?

When was the photo you keep linking to taken?

Why do you expect us to take you seriously when you think only 70,000 people were there?

Finally, the top part of this link pretty much sums it all up.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/sep/09092307.html

You might be impressed with your reasoning but it's getting tedious. There is no comparable aerial photo so there's no real way of being that accurate, but anyone can see that 70,000 is just plain stupid. And anyone can see that you care way too much.

Well Stephan I expected one question. As for "caring way too much" if Moonbattery wants to keep raising the issue, I will keep responding. Since you care enough to ask your questions I will care enough to respond.

1. How many in the video?

No idea. All anyone can say is "lots of people". Anyone who claims to be able to "estimate" numbers from a video is pulling a fast one. The "university" study by Moilanen is a perfect example. Not only does he make his calculations from a video, he makes it from a TIME-LAPSE video that makes more logical leaps and assumptions than I can be bothered to deal with. For just a wee taste of his faulty math, look at page 13 where he calculates the width of the Mall by ignoring the paths on either side. It's totally bogus.

Bottom line - you will find no reputable attendance estimate anywhere, of any event, that is based on video analysis.

There are three things needed to do an accurate crowd estimate.
a) an aerial view
b) an estimate or estimates of the crowd density based on that view
c) the square foot area that the crowd occupies.

Unfortunately, to date, no aerial view of the demonstration has emerged so ANY estimates made are handicapped. You are right, there's no real way of being accurate.

2. When was This Photo taken?

No idea. I think it is pretty safe to assume that the photographer took his shots when the crowd was at its' peak. He says, and I believe him, that there was more crowd to the sides that were not included in the panorama.

I agree that time is obviously an issue with any crowd shots. You could say the same about the Obama Inauguration aerial views. I suppose a series of photos taken at one hour intervals would be more definitive but we work with what we have.

Bottom line, the 9/12 panorama was taken by the lead photographer for Freedomworks, the main sponsor for the march. I expect he got the best crowd shot he could get.

3. Why do you expect us to take you seriously when you think only 70,000 people were there?

I have not stated that there were 70,000 people there although I did offer an analysis based on square footage of the area occupied and projected crowd density that raised the possibility, that the 60 to 70 thousand figure cited by most media, was correct.

Why should I take Moonbattery seriously when they cite a "study" that calculates there were 1.7 million?

It is physically impossible for that many people to fit into the area the 9/12 crowd occupied at the capitol. That would mean taking DOUBLE the people shown in the Obama aerial views, and putting them between 3rd St. and the Capitol. Impossible.

4. Re the top part of your link.

More of the same. They claim "well over half a million" to more than a million. LifeSiteNews is not exactly a well-known media outfit.

More than once I have invited people here to provide video or still photo links that demonstrate there were significant numbers of 9/12 people on the mall between 3rd St. and the Monument. NOBODY has been able to do it. The panorama shows the crowd ends at 3rd St.

Lao......Wow.

How many people wee there? Enough.

How do we know this?

Because the Left won't stop obsessing over it.

Tony wins the thread. Going away.

Lao keeps insisting the Museum of American Indians building isn't in this shot or that, but it's been in every one of them claimed to be 9/12, and it's damn hard to miss. Credibility fail.

I wasn't patient enough to pick through the university guy's analysis, but he does consider areas and aerial data. 1.7 megapeople still seems flaky. However, compared to 80 kilopeople in a stadium, and how much bigger this place is than a stadium (although a little less densely packed) as well as other factors, it obviously puts 70 kilopeople right out of the question.

Laugh, laugh, laugh.

Go back to the video at the start of this thread. Look at the 4th and 5th pictures in. Pause on each one.

What do you see in both pictures? A bigger crowd than in any of the other shots.

Clear blue skies!!

Hardly any signs!!

In the second of those pictures in the foreground is a guy with two rainbow flags. That is a GAY gathering somewhere!

When you have no evidence, just borrow some from somewhere else. Hilarious, not to mention lame.

Wrong Evilwrench.

The museum is in ground level shots including the panorama I have linked. Where it is missing is in the purported aerial view which was actually a shot of the Promise Keepers. Another example of someone "borrowing" a picture that had nothing to do with 9.12 to try to bolster their case.

Go back to the posting by Ted at 3:06. The Museum is not in the right had picture. That picture was also taken on a sunny day. Also, notice that the white tents near the Washington Monument are not shown.

I may have missed something, BUT: I have NOT seen a picture that claims to be from 9/12 which does not include that museum, and I HAVE seen pictures you claimed did not include it, but did. But that's just me.

I have only claimed ONE picture does not show the museum - this one:

Promise Keepers

Scroll back to the link provided by Ted at 2:06. The link is called I Choose! Ted, like many before him was fooled by whoever tried to claim that picture was an aerial of 9/12.

1. It was not a sunny day on 9/12
2. The Museum of the American Indian is not there.
3. The white tents at the back of the mall are not there.

Look at the 9/12 Panorama

See the white tents back by the monument? See the museum?

Well Well Well!!

I see the left idiots are still lying to themselves about 9/12. You guys are displaying your fear to the tenth power. Give it up, leftards! You and I both know that your days are numbered.

I personally feed on your fear.

After your messiah rookie speech at the UN he pretty much drove another nail in the lefty coffin.

Face it lefties, there were thousands there on 9/12. Trying to minimize the numbers won't do you any good. What you saw on 9/12 is just a taste of what is to come when mid term elections come around. Your goose is cooked and we are the chefs.

Sqirm like a worm!

Dave says: "Face it lefties, there were thousands there on 9/12."

Only "thousands" Dave? You have just minimized the numbers yourself and made the lowest estimate that I have seen anywhere.

What does it matter? There still where a hell of a lot of people and the numbers seem to have leftist like you all bent out of shape. Stop kidding yourself, Lao. The patriot movement is bigger than the socialist movement and far more classy. You guys, in my estimation, are a bunch of lying ass thugs. You will stop at nothing to discredit any facts that endanger your grab for power. Not to worry leftist liar Lao, we will stop you in 2010. If it make you feel better, Lefty Lao, there where hundreds of thousand protest your cause. Maybe even millions. The fact is that you are scared. We surround you and there is nothing you can do about except go away.

You are such a tool.

Great video!!! How many were there?? Who knows, who really cares? The lefties are shocked by the demostration, Obama even left the city, and the only way they can cope with it is to attempt to say by lower numbers that it wasn't significant. As has been said 'de-niel' is more than a river in Egypt.

Posted by: czekmark at September 24, 2009 4:53 PM

My point exactly. There were enough people there to knock the idiot leftist off their high horse. They continue to argue the number of PATRIOTS. Minimizing the numbers is a mute point. The pictures speak for themselves and the left knows it. They are scared shitless and we know it. Lao is a prime example of leftist scum in fear and denial.

"The pictures speak for themselves"

They certainly do.

9/12 Panorama

And picture #2, 3, 5, 17 and 20 here:

Obama Inauguration

Still a mute point, lefty Lao. The fact of the matter is that we are on to you guys and you know it.

9/12 just a taste of things yet to come.

You really do show so much fear and your comparisons of inaugural pictures does not prove one thing. If anything it's a real stupid comparison and is of no consequence.

Like I said.....you are such a tool.

What is your point, lefty Lao.

What are you trying to get across with these comparisons?

Curious to see what angle you are approaching this with.

Look at the 9/12 panorama and notice a key point. The back of the crowd is at 3rd St.

The guy who estimated there were 1.7 million at 9/12 also estimated there were 970,000 at the Inauguration.

Let's accept those numbers just for fun.

Look at the aerial shots of the Inauguration. Imagine that all those people on the Mall and at the Monument decided they wanted a closer view - closer than 3rd St.

Could they have fit in?

Could 700,000 MORE have fit in?

And your point is, Lefty Lao?

Just as I figured, lefty Lao. No point just a scared lefty about to lose.

Later, college boy. Debate me when you have something of substance.

Tool............

Arguing with Ayers-Alinsky-Lao-Garofolo types about the numbers of Patriots that were here or there does nothing but derail the point. We're done with the commies and they will be booted out.

It's time for 9/12 times two - this time let there be no doubt.
Tip: Commodities traders: tar and feathers futures look bright!

Let there be no doubt indeed. Hopefully next time we get a REAL aerial photo.

1. You did not answer the question. "Lots of people" is an answer that - compared with your DETAILED estimate based on ONE photo, shows that your are biased towards one point of view. You are only prepared to spend time to reach one particular conclusion. I read another estimation that claimed numbers much much higher. Your assertion that crowd sizes cannot be estimated from video is ridiculous. Effectively you are saying one cannot count unless one is above a crowd which is daft. Now I know you are going to howl about accuracy, but the simple truth is that it is obvious that way more than your idiotic 70,000 pass by Sophie Elena's cameraman in the 86 minutes he was there. They are all heading in one direction and she gives the necessary data to make some kind of estimate (ie. sped up by 900% and the width of the street) so it is certainly possible to spend some time on that. And the fact is the march went on a lot longer, just he got tired. I searched and found at least 3 different forms of crowd counting from video sources, so your claim is just wrong. But nothing beats the fact that you want to spend copious amounts of time here trying to convince us that our eyes really aren't seeing what we're seeing.

2. You do not know the answer to the question is actually your answer here. The only real way of knowing is by contacting Freedomworks. That photo could've been taken at any time, so the point is that you don't even TRY to find out. That is your great problem - your obvious bias in the way you approach the evidence. But given you won't even accept the reasonably objective data about the increased patronage on the train system (alone substantially more than your estimate), it's impossible to take you seriously. The reason I ask that question is because that photo actually strikes me as showing a great deal less people than what can be seen in some other photos, as well as what some eyewitnesses are saying too.

3. Doublespeak. You really are a liberal. Either you said something or you didn't. YOU made the calculations. YOU posted a conclusion. Be bold. Everybody knows 70,000 is a wild underestimation, except you want to defend it, but then get all invertebrate on us when actually asked to state what YOU think. The truth is, you just like controversy for controversy's sake, not as a means to get to the truth. Yes, that is tedious. Yes, that is the behaviour of a boring troll.

4. I linked to LifeSite News as their take on it seemed to be quite fair and reasonable, given the data available. Given the estimate of the inauguration is about 850,000 to 970,000, the videos I have seen, along with the hard data of the extra patronage on the train system, approx. half a million, give or take a hundred thousand, is reasonable. But disparaging LifeSite is just petty. Their reporting I have always found to be quite solid, and no, I'm not Catholic. They make the point that we already know - the mainstream media only report according to their prejudices. If it's not an event they endorse, it never happened, or it was too small to bother with beyond a minor mention. Pro-life advocates know this skewing of facts only too well. It's attitudes like yours that continue to empower them to lie through their teeth and get away with it. "But we reported it" they rage at that FOX ad. But, as LifeSite news points out, the reporting is clearly biased, so effectively they did not. You're obviously OK with the media misinforming the American public. The fact is this - a very large and significant gathering of people into the hundreds of thousands from all over the country turned up at Capitol Hill enraged at a government out of control in regards to taxes and interference with personal liberties. (It's difficult to know exactly how many, but my feeling is to take the mid point between the two most extreme estimates and that's probably going to be closer to the truth.) What is also objective is that there was not one arrest and the areas were spotless afterwards. This says a great deal about the demeanor of the crowd too. The American public do not know any of this, unless they watched FOX.

Oh, and btw, some people's videos that get some photos mixed up with other events doesn't actually change the number of people at 9/12. Like most liberals, you strain a gnat, but swallow a camel. I'm not afraid of facts, but you seem to be. You're happy to watch the continued lying of the media, but many here are sick of it. A handful of missteps by some does not add up to consistent and institutionalized lying. Get over it - a LOT of people think the Obama government is dangerous, and it is clear their numbers are only growing. Diehard lefties like you want to deny it - well, it's going to ruder for you the later you leave that awakening.

Stephan I am glad to see you responding, debate is certainly preferable to the name calling drek posted here. However, I am about to pack it in so my response will be quick. Maybe I will try to amplify it tomorrow.

1. I DID answer the question. You cannot make any kind of reasonable estimate from a video, particularly a time-lapse video.

Why? Crowd density for one. Look at the video. Sometimes people are close together, sometimes you can see half the street is empty. When people are standing at the demonstration at the Capitol, then you have an opportunity to make some judgement calls.

Unfortunately, the lack of an aerial photograph means that EVERY attempt to make an estimate, mine included, is suspect. That's why I have not made any kind of statement that said "there were X people at the 9/12 demonstration".

2. I also answered the 9/12 panorama question. Look, if the lead photographer for Freedomworks took a panorama photo do you really expect anyone to believe he failed to take pictures at the peak of the demonstration?

Freedomworks, as I understand it, is turning that panorama into a celebratory poster. You suggest I should be contacting Freedomworks to find out when the picture was taken. Hey, be my guest. I will be interested to hear the answer.

You suggest that "other photos" show more people. Cool. Link them.

You talk about the trains, well there was also a completely different event happening at the other end of the mall. Also, if the metro in DC is like my community, people buy a ticket when they go and they buy a ticket when they return. Cut your numbers, whatever they may be, in half.

3. Bear in mind, I started this exercise by refuting that absurd "study" that tried to prove there were 1.7 million in attendance. I'm glad to see you are sensible enough not to cling to that number. That "study", by the way, analyzed the video.

I made rough measurements of the square foot space the 9/12 crowd occupied. You would expect that crowd density would be tightest right in front of the stage area. You would also expect that density would diminish as you moved further away. This is borne out by photos. After noting how much unoccupied space was within the demonstration area I spoke about crowd density as an average of the entire area and said this:

24 square feet per person (a 4.9 foot square) gives us 66,666 people. That's within the estimated range that most media have adopted.

20 square feet per person (a 4.47 foot square) = 80,000.

16 square feet per person (a 4 foot square) = 100,000.

Oh, and by the way, how much personal space would 1,000,000 demonstrators have had in that area? 1.6 square feet - a 1.26 foot square.

I did not say THIS is how many people were there, I presented the options based on average density.

Your statement "Everybody knows 70,000 is a wild underestimation" means nothing. I have demonstrated why it may not be a wild underestimation at all.

4. You base your 500,000 belief on train data and what I presume is your gut feeling about the videos. I'm sorry but what you "feel" to be true is not any kind of proof.

I have not denied the significance of this event, quite the contrary, see my post at 6:52.

You go on about media and I have not paid any attention beyond what they said on day one - "attendance was 60 to 70 thousand". I have done my own research and drawn my own conclusions. You will not find the information I have cited in any left leaning talking points that I cut and paste.

Your comment about videos getting photos "mixed up" is amusing.

The 1.7 million people study is bogus. The PromiseKeepers aerial touted as 9/12 is bogus. ABC reports 2 million in attendance is bogus. A couple stills in the video at the head of this thread are bogus.

You claim I am afraid of the "facts". What facts? Opinions are not facts. ""Everybody knows" is not a fact. I have done my due diligence, now you do yours.

It's far too late...see you tomorrow.

Lao,

You don't get it do you? You're still trying to get people here to disbelieve their own eyes - I've been in crowds of 80,000+ many many times - THAT is clearly much larger.

RE: Lao - Various Posts, LOTS of 'em

Another multipage essay - obviously this has got you Lefties bugged.

Refer to my earlier September 24, 2009 11:10 AM post - it's all you need to know.

But you just keep on digging......

Ok Stephan - you have been in crowds and you believe your own eyes.

One question - Do your eyes agree that the 9/12 crowd did not significantly extend past 3rd St. on the Mall?