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August 8, 2009

Seniors Revolt Against the AARP

The AARP claims to represent retired Americans. Actually, it represents moonbattery, retired folks be damned. The organization's contempt for its members reached a climax with its support for nationalization of the healthcare industry, which if successful will replace seniors' world best medical care with long waits for pain pills, because Comrade Obama thinks it would be more cost-effective if they just died.

Despite the diet of lies they are fed by the liberal establishment through the MSM, retired Americans are catching on. Watch them take over an AARP town hall meeting in Dallas last Tuesday:

If healthcare nazification is Comrade Obama's Waterloo, it will be the AARP's too.

On tips from Michael S, J, mega, and Bill. Hat tips: Stop the ACLU, Michelle Malkin.

Posted by Van Helsing at August 8, 2009 4:38 PM

Comments

This does not surprise me, The AARP is little more than a mouth piece for the Loony left and the Dumocratic party.

Posted by: Red Star at August 8, 2009 5:07 PM

You know, "PROFITS" pay for research and development. They pay wages and for capital expenditures and capital improvements. Profits mean the government gets to make taxes off of the profits. Profits benefit stockholders who make investments when they're share improve in value, or earn dividends as a result of profits.

Gee whiz, what the hell are the left condemning, basic American business now?

And what makes this guy think that because a company made a profit, they didn't fulfill their entire product or service to satisfaction?

Does this mean that a company that makes a profit only gave you half or 3/4 of their product or service?

Rush talked a bit about "profits" today. Just a talking point maybe, but whenever anyone condemns a company from "making a profit" you gotta wonder if they think we are living in capitalism or in communism.

Posted by: Pete at August 8, 2009 5:21 PM

The AARP has never represented old people. When I turning 45 they started sending me their sign up sheets and I always write "return to sender" on them and dump them back in the mail box. They do absolutely nothing. And their attempted at a younger, "hipper" magazine a few years ago failed too. No one cares about them. I hope they go away.

Posted by: puffdaddy at August 8, 2009 5:45 PM

Cowardly Dems Hold ‘Stealth Care’ Meetings

http://jammiewearingfool.blogspot.com/2009/08/cowardly-dems-hold-stealth-care.html

New video from St. Louis town hall beating

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/08/new-video-from-stl-town-hall-beating/

Democrat screams at constituent for asking tough question on health care

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/07/video-democrat-screams-at-constituent-for-asking-tough-question-on-health-care/

Posted by: J at August 8, 2009 6:18 PM

There is an alternative to AARP. The organization is called American Seniors Association and they do everything the AARP does, without the liberal BS.

Their website is here.

Posted by: Son of Taz at August 8, 2009 6:28 PM

More Mob Violence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwxf_2GFOBc

Posted by: J at August 8, 2009 6:29 PM

When an organization gets more money from "other sources" than from its membership, you know where their loyalty is.

Remember the old saying: "If there were no foxes, you wouldn't need shepherds."


Posted by: Sylvia at August 8, 2009 6:55 PM

You know, even in countries with socialized health insurance systems, pharmaceutical companies make "profits".

I dislike reading vitriolic comments from retards on the left or right, but given the seemingly bottomless bag of dirty tricks, misinformation, and hate-mongering the right wing has displayed, I have no problem seeing the tables turn on narrow minded neo-cons and their pals.

Meanwhile, You can call "Obamacare" evil as much as you want, but having 47,000,000 uninsured Americans, and maybe another 50,000,000 to 100,000,000 underinsured is a national crisis and threat to our national economic security.

Not wanting to cover those people, and working hard to prevent medical care for those that need it is evil and selfish, IMO. Our current system fails more and more each day. It will bankrupt us all if unchanged.

Posted by: mark the parent at August 8, 2009 7:40 PM

You, sir, are disconnected from reality and the simple truth behind economics.

Let's just use your numbers.

47M uninsured.
50M underinsured.
300M people in country (estimate).
(300M)-(47M+50M)= 203M properly insured.
2T cost (just random number, I chose a low number for a reason... reality is, we spend more on healthcare than that).

Now, in our current system, (2T/203M)= 9852/person. They'd get $9,852 worth of care.

If we tossed JUST those 47M uninsured, we'd have (2T/250m)= 8000/person. They'd get $8,000 worth of care.

This means that if we're going to spend LESS PER PERSON, then quality WILL GO DOWN, across the board. Plus services will have to rationed even more for the costs to go down... further diminishing quality.

Remember, I didn't even include the underinsured people in EITHER figure... which means value/person WILL GO DOWN.

Posted by: AmericanToTheCore at August 8, 2009 7:53 PM

I doubt most seniors even know how left wing AARP is. They sign up for all the discounts on everything.

Posted by: Deuce Geary at August 8, 2009 7:53 PM

Here's a simpler way for you to look at it.

Let's say you have $500 and 5 friends. You want to give them an equal amount of the money. Therefore, each of the 5 gets $100.

Now, let's say you have $500 and 20 friends. You want to give them an equal amount of money. Therefore, each of the 20 gets $25.

What we can conclude from this example is that everyone will receive LESS as a consequence of putting MORE people on a system. The only way to combat this is by increasing the principle dollar amount. Since this will be government-run... where do you think they get "revenue?"... DING DING DING... TAXPAYERS. Huge tax increases will be absolutely REQUIRED (on everyone) to provide the necessary funds to accomodate a 25% increase of participants, otherwise rationing and lower quality WILL BE THE OUTCOME.

Posted by: AmericanToTheCore at August 8, 2009 7:58 PM

A = Anti
A = American
R = Revisionist
P = Proles

Posted by: Anonymous at August 8, 2009 7:59 PM

I dare you to refute your ignorance to fundamental economic theories.

Pick up a book... you might learn something.

Just because you choose to separate yourself from basic principles does not validate your false interpretation of reality.

Posted by: AmericanToTheCore at August 8, 2009 8:01 PM

AmericanToTheCore Ding Ding

Kiss my ass

Posted by: Red Star at August 8, 2009 8:09 PM

Red Star... I'm not quite sure what is meant tby that comment so... "HAI!!!!"

Posted by: AmericanToTheCore at August 8, 2009 8:16 PM

Core - You are SUCH and ANGRY mobster!

I bet you're racist, too. It's obvious - you use math when so many children of color in the inner cities are arithmatic impaired. You should be ashamed of yourself!

*snicker*

Posted by: Jimbo at August 8, 2009 8:38 PM

I just so friggin' frustrated when libtards ignore the consequences of actions. Of course, giving health insurance and care to everyone sounds good in theory. Unfortunately, they don't have an grasp on reality as to how Congress intends on reaching such a huge goal.

Reminds me of the underpants gnomes from South Park:
1) Collect underpants ("we all have a right to healthcare")
2) ??? (???)
3) PROFITS! (everyone has healthcare)

The only way to reach number 3 is to bend over and rape the Capitalist achievers in order to award those who chose not to excel in a society that affords every opportunity to do just that.

Piss off libtards. We can't fuel our economy or healthcare on sunshines, rainbows, lollipops, and fairytales of "peace and love dude." Someone has to provide for the parasites (libtards) and YOU DON'T WANT to spend your own money, but you're entirely comfortable spending other peoples' money.

Strengthens the notion that liberalism is a mental disorder, curable only by death.

Posted by: AmericanToTheCore at August 8, 2009 9:24 PM

MARK THE PARENT:
Sorry, an F.
Good beginning, "I dislike reading vitriolic comments from retards on the left or right," which establishes your credentials as a fair minded man. If you had left it there, it would have been an A.
But immediately you wrote," bottomless bag of dirty tricks, misinformation, and hate-mongering the right wing has displayed"
It got worse when you made the point that the right were evil and selfish for wanting to deny health care to the poor.
If you wish to continue your career, or earn your pay, I suggest you concentrate on diversionary blogs. Hypocrisy is a talent not given to all. You will, of course, have to change your name. You're blown here.

Posted by: Jim at August 9, 2009 12:53 AM

Mark the Parent, you sound like the rest of the zombies. Like Jim wrote, the beginning was good. Try to wrap your mind around the following: Health care is a RESPONSIBILITY not a right.

Posted by: Hope at August 9, 2009 1:52 AM

Make AARP pay. Cancel your memberships now and give them the reason you did.

Posted by: Apostle53 at August 9, 2009 3:17 AM

Forty-seven million Americans uninsured? NONSENSE!
Illegal aliens ARE NOT Americans, they are Mexicans, Guatamalans, Somalis, Nicaraguans.... whatever, but NOT Americans. There are at least 12 and more likely 20 million of these people here in the US ILLEGALLY!!
Why does Obama want to provide health care for these people?? Their health care starts in Nuevo Laredo and Tiajuana!!
Sorry, call me mean (I don't really care what you call me) for denying care to the poor and disadvantaged citizens of the friggin planet, but I'm sick and damned tired of working and paying for all this kindness! I'm sick and tired of welfare and Affirmative Action and all these other 'charities' that I am forced to contribute to!!!!!!
I canceled my membership to this insurance co. 3 years ago!

Posted by: Shooter1001 at August 9, 2009 4:21 AM

Posted by: mark the parent at August 8, 2009 7:40 PM

Go away. We've seen the form comments before. It's boring.

If you want to be a troll, at least write your own stuff.

Posted by: forest at August 9, 2009 6:39 AM

The stupid bitch in the video squeals about the insurance companies making an eighty billion $ profit.
These dumb asses like to throw that number around like your being ripped off of a huge amount of money. Because it sounds so big.
It works out to an average of $350.00 per head (+/- 1%)
$350.00? Your fucking grocery on the corner makes seven times that per head on a yearly basis.
Does that mean the government needs to pass grocery store reform?
The gas station that your local Muslim business man runs has four times that margin.
Does that mean the government needs to pass convenience store reform?
This is about these Chicago gangsters getting a bigger cut of everything. Period.

Posted by: Black Lion at August 9, 2009 7:02 AM

"Black Lion at August 9, 2009 7:02 AM"

And they never say if those "profits" are before or after expenses. How much goes back into the company for salarys, advertising, building maintinace, travel and utility bills? How much goes to pay bank loans, stocks and retirement pensions? How much goes to local and federal taxes, fees and licenses?

Liberals just don't understand ecconomics, they think that "the (EEEVIL!) rich" have shoeboxes and drawers full of $50 and $100 banknotes hidden around their houses where the poor can't find it.

Posted by: KHarn at August 9, 2009 7:28 AM

Maybe Soylent Green won't be people.

Posted by: Alton at August 9, 2009 8:06 AM

Here's a realistic solution to the healthcare problem.

The primary concern of liberals and BO's government seems to be the 47M uninsured illegal aliens, drug dealers, teenage runaways, the obese stuck in trailers and assorted schizophrenic homeless yelling at sewer gratings.

Mainstream America is all but satisfied with their healthcare.

So here's the plan: First of all we determine how much more Republicans as a rule give to charity than do democrats (Its substantial).
Now, let's even that out by passing a law (Dems do this very well) that requires the same fiscal level of charitable contributions to come from high-income Dems, Left-wing organizations, Corporations and Universities that give disproportionately to democratic politicians and left-wing socialist causes.

Then the Charitable Tax Revenue so confiscated will go to the 47M in the form of a kind of government-issued HMO, or something--whatever.
But in any event, leaving the rest of us the f alone.

Posted by: Fiberal at August 9, 2009 8:07 AM

posted by 'mark the parent'
"..but given the seemingly bottomless bag of dirty tricks, misinformation, and hate-mongering the right wing has displayed..."

Name one. Explicitly. With the name of the person who said it and when.

Posted by: chuck in st paul at August 9, 2009 8:53 AM

AARP has been socialist/communist for decades. "Old People" apparently never get it.

This is the same group who propagandized the old farts into a frenzy concerning Mediscare and Social Security over the last 8 election cycles or so. Even after the President explained that the old timers' SSA payments are uneffected, AARP and the Demoncrats robo-called them with scare stories on how they were going to loose their benefits. They fell for it every time.

This is just an extension of the same "sky is falling" syndrome, but based on actual danger of loss of benefits. The Dims set themselves up for this. What goes around comes around. Ha, ha.

Posted by: chuck in st paul at August 9, 2009 9:00 AM

Democrat screams at constituent for asking tough question on health care


US Rep. David Scott Loses Temper at Townhall


It turns out the person asking the question is a LOCAL Doctor (Democrat) that wanted information for his patients. The Dems are SO EAGER to attack anyone they perceive as questioning them they will attack anyone. Especially a black Rep. that thinks his Messiah is being questioned! RACIST!

Posted by: TED at August 9, 2009 9:13 AM

You know, even in countries with socialized health insurance systems, pharmaceutical companies make "profits".

Pharma makes profits in socialist countries because R&D costs are amortized in the US. That means that anything they make overseas is gravy. Socialist countries buy pharmaceuticals from pharma essentially on a cost-plus basis, with cost being that of production, not discovery and development. If the US did the same thing, pharma would close up shop tomorrow.

Put it this way. Someone can sell pirated movies at the cost of a blank DVD plus a bit more and still make money, right? The cost of production of the DVD is practically nil – once the movie itself actually exists. That's exactly the situation of the socialist countries: they're sucking the blood of sick and elderly Americans, so that their own people don't have to pay their fair share of R&D costs. Nice.

Drug costs are higher in the US because the entire cost of R&D - $500 MM to $1 BN – has to be recouped in ca. five years (the typical patent life remaining when a drug is approved by FDA) and in one country – the US. Pharma also has to recoup the costs sunk on failed drugs. (Consider torceptrapib, a Pfizer drug to treat hypercholesterolemia. Fifteen years into development it went poof! in phase III clinical trials. Bye bye $800 MM! Think the Europeans paid anything toward that? Uh – no. Not a sou, a pfennig, a pence, or a lira.

Not wanting to cover those people, and working hard to prevent medical care for those that need it is evil and selfish, IMO.

Not wanting to let people make their own decisions, and working hard to deprive them of their earnings, is evil and selfish in my opinion.

It will bankrupt us all if unchanged.

This is actually kind of funny. All socialist programs in this country are already bankrupt: their liabilities exceed their assets. Medicare? Check. Social Security? Check. Fannie Mae? Check. Freddie Mac? Check. Why do they still exist then, you ask? Answer: because Ponzi schemes don't collapse until they're recognized as such, and people try to withdraw their money. Obamacare will mean people can't withdraw their money; it will be extracted from them by force. Imagine Bernard Madoff running an investment house that people were required to invest in. That's what we're talking about. Think!

Posted by: Jay Guevara at August 9, 2009 9:20 AM

YOU, "mark the so called parent" are so interested the Dem propaganda of covering 47 million uninsured (illegal's) you're willing to kill off your old for it. First the young and now the old, always the people that can't defend themselves, anyone seeing a pattern here!?

Posted by: TED at August 9, 2009 9:22 AM

Posted by: TED at August 9, 2009 9:26 AM

I just watched that video. It INFURIATES ME! What a POS. The unimitigated gaul of these federal employees never cease to amaze me.

I think this entire healthcare debate is going to get very ugly very soon.

I'm physically very strong and fit. I dare one of these goons at the next healthcare meeting I attend to push me around.

They'll be taking their nuts home for lunch.

Posted by: Janet at August 9, 2009 9:40 AM

Ted, your debunked "assisted suicide" fear mongering is a perfect example of "the seemingly bottomless bag of dirty tricks, misinformation, and hate-mongering the right wing has displayed" that was mentioned above.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 9, 2009 10:15 AM

The WH has been working all weekend to come up with a distraction against the thousands of NaziCare protesters. It will be interesting to see what they've cooked up for the rest of August.

Posted by: Harriet at August 9, 2009 10:23 AM

Holy Mackerel Andy...when was assisted suicide "debunked"?

Posted by: Amos at August 9, 2009 10:26 AM

Amos, there is no "assisted suicide" language in HB3200 or any other legislation directly or indirectly associated with hearth reform. None. This was something fabricated by those on the right to scare people. There is no "forced" grandma killings and despite what Sarah Palin says, there's no government proposals to kill her baby Trig because he has Downs Syndrome. This is simply another cheap trick as well as another example of how she exploits her own children for political gain.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 9, 2009 10:45 AM

andy42302,
it's aready happening. There is a video interview with a woman who has been denied a new chemotherapy drug and was given references to death counselling. This is exactly what happens with the so-called 'health care' that's in the Obama plan. The Scandinavian countries have been doing this for decades - death is cheaper than treatment.

Nice try at spin, but leave it to the professionals. You're not very good at it.

"State officials have offered a lung cancer patient the option of having the Oregon Health Plan, set up in 1994 to ration health care, pay for an assisted suicide but not for the chemotherapy prescribed by her physician."
[http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=67565]

Posted by: chuck in st paul at August 9, 2009 11:02 AM

Utter nonsense and fear mongering Chuck. Where in HB3200 goes it promote assisted suicide? It doesn't. You can't point it out because it doesn't exist.
The spin is that the professionals are using "the seemingly bottomless bag of dirty tricks, misinformation, and hate-mongering the right wing has displayed" that we've seen before brought to us by the powerful in order to keep making the big bucks.
But I guess all of this is disputed based on your say so?

Posted by: andy42302 at August 9, 2009 11:10 AM

Andy, you referenced back to TED's post as if you were winning a talking point. It's a cartoon, and a clever one.

End of Life Counseling? Did we make that up? Take a pain pill instead of having the surgery? Did we make that up? We're not buying what you're trying to sell, so I don't even know why you come here at all. We're looking clear-eyed at Canada, UK, et al, and then looking at the failures of Mass, Hawaii, Tenncare. Then, we look at Obama's monster of a science Czar, Holdren AKA Mengele, and we want no part of it and will fight.

I love my elderly relatives. They have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, too.

Posted by: Karin at August 9, 2009 11:37 AM

Andy's rants began with the cartoon at the link posted by TED. Look at that cartoon and then read Andy's rants.

Andy, you really have a problem with all the hate you have inside - but that's your problem. Get some help.


Posted by: Kevin R. at August 9, 2009 11:41 AM

Medicare costs are going to be reduced by $500,000,000,000 by using an IT system? Then that $$$ will be used to cover 47 million people not covered now?

If you believe that, you'd better check into rehab.

I will bet you my friggin house that the gov't morooons couldn't come up with an IT system for anything less than $500,000,000,000. And when its finally done, it will be obsolete!

Posted by: Shooter1001 at August 9, 2009 11:50 AM

"andy42302 at August 9, 2009 10:45 AM"

Did you READ the bill? Your people in Washington didn't. They will vote for it just because your TOKEN president demands it and they don't want to appier RAAACIST!.

Posted by: KHarn at August 9, 2009 11:50 AM

There are so many alternatives out there -- some already filed -- that are far more cost-effective and market-basaed. Check out the Empower Patients First Act, or Google Sally Pipes, or check out THe Prognosis for National Health Insurance (http://lafferhealthcarereport.org). Of course, those all offer common sense solutions without dramatically increasing government intrusion in to our lives, so they'll never fly inside the Beltway.

AARP also offers insurance. Hmmm.

The woman running that meeting just flat-out lied to her membership ("AARP doesn't endorse any bill.") THe Washington Post today noted that "AARP . . . will unveil a pro-reform TV and print ad campaign Monday." Plus, she had a really big butt.

Posted by: MoogieP at August 9, 2009 11:53 AM

i hear that seiu is going to handle the "end of life counseling", another sop from the obama administration, imagine one of these union goons at your doorstep, DNR waiver in hand, "go gently into that good night gramps, or i break your legs" :P

Posted by: weewilly at August 9, 2009 12:00 PM

No Karin, you didn't make up "end of life counseling". What has been made up is an over the top interpretation of it. All "end of life counseling" does is adds coverage for counseling in the event that the patient wants it. This means that it will pay for services if the patient wants or needs a living will or perhaps seeks knowledge of power of attorney.
Ignorance is one thing but when a claim is proven otherwise, continuing to espouse this nonsense becomes a lie. This is just another example of the right continuing a lie until it somehow becomes the truth, even though it's a known lie.
But I've come to learn that truth on this site is irrelevant. Folks here are like that small percentage that believes the sun rotates around the earth. No amount of facts are going to change your thinking because it conflicts with what you want to believe.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 9, 2009 12:02 PM

Obamacare = Disaster

It's that simple. The only way to "control" costs (which cannot really be controlled, of course, only CUT) is to hack away at those who utilize the majority of the resources, i.e., the elderly and the very young [preemies, et al.] -- there you WILL find significant savings, if you just let 'em die (please tell me how compassionate the coming Health Rationing Politburo will be, drones!).

Anyone over the age of 50 and still a member of the American Association of [Liberal] Retired Persons is in fact funding their executioner with their dues; at age 65, let's say, you might have another 20 years, typically, but with AA[L]RP/Obamacare you can count on less than 5, I expect, and less still if you should (horrors!) actually get sick or injured in any way -- then, you can bend over and kiss your ass "good-bye." [Albeit the HR Politburo will do it "compassionately," with counseling and paid-for assisted suicide, free burial or cremation on the government. Wow! What a deal!].

Posted by: jc14 at August 9, 2009 12:11 PM

This is just another example of the right continuing a lie until it somehow becomes the truth, even though it's a known lie.
Posted by: andy42302 at August 9, 2009 12:02 PM

"95% of americans will get a TAX CUT", "if you like your doctor/insurance you can keep your doctor/insurance", "we will save/create 3-4 million jobs" some more "examples".

Posted by: weewilly at August 9, 2009 12:11 PM

Excellent....Excellent! /rubbing my hands together/ These stupid libs are doing exactly what we want them to do. PISSING OFF THE SENIOR CITIZENS! Dems are losing votes just like they are losing jobs in the economy. Keep up the good work Dems. 2010 is just around the corner.

Posted by: Dave at August 9, 2009 12:19 PM

Kharn, yes, I read the bill. It's more apparent that YOUR people are the ones that haven't read it as it's they that are quoting language that doesn't exist.

Weewilly, have you read the bill? "if you like your doctor/insurance you can keep your doctor/insurance" is a true statement.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 9, 2009 12:58 PM

But I've come to learn that truth on this site is irrelevant. Folks here are like that small percentage that believes the sun rotates around the earth.
Posted by: andy42302 at August 9, 2009 12:02 PM

The spin is that the professionals are using "the seemingly bottomless bag of dirty tricks, misinformation, and hate-mongering the right wing has displayed" that we've seen before brought to us by the powerful in order to keep making the big bucks.
Posted by: andy42302 at August 9, 2009 11:10 AM

Andy believes that opposition to the Health Care Bill is a conspiracy from "big bucks." This is the old leftwing belief that capitalists are an evil greedy conspiracy from which socialism will save us.

And we are the ones that "believes the sun rotates around the earth?" You're the one with the dressed-up Marxist conspiracy theory.

Thanks Andy. Anymore warmed-over leftwing conspiracy theories you want to use?

Like I said before Andy, get some help.


Posted by: Kevin R. at August 9, 2009 1:06 PM

Andy;
"But I've come to learn that truth on this site is irrelevant. Folks here are like that small percentage that believes the sun rotates around the earth."
Andy, my dear man, why torture yourself? Is someone making you blog? Is it in your job description?
And why did you read the bill? Don't you believe what you have been told? I mean, the President, God bless him, hasn't read it - why should you?

Posted by: Jim at August 9, 2009 1:10 PM

Jim,

Its his gripping realization of our ability to voice opinions that goes against his socialist beliefs that drives him to troll here.

That and the fact that Soros and crew pay him by the post.

Posted by: Oiao at August 9, 2009 1:13 PM

Candy Andy!!!! I was just talking about you. I miss ya my favorite liberal. Your Libtard twin, ghost of these nuts, hooked me up with some skewed info that I will read later about this subject. After I get through with some business I will thrashing and bashing you both. Glad you are doing well.

Oh by the way. What do you think about all these great American, the silent majority, calling out all those libtard leaders in the house and senate?
This is not going to be pretty for the Kenyan socialist sitting in the WHITE house. I'm sorry. By Capping white in white house sound racist? Well it is white ya know.

Always listen to your elders, Andy. Their talking now and it ain't gonna be pretty for all you DEMAFUCKS.

TA TA

Posted by: Dave at August 9, 2009 1:21 PM

I think I see Andy's problem. He is quite right, the words "assisted suicide" do not appear in the bill, any more than "death camps" or "holocaust" appear in any German documents.
But, Andy, the fact that the word "scam" does not appear in emails offering free holiday accommodation in the Bahamas, does not mean that the email is a genuine offer.
I could just as easily say that the words, "will cut costs" do not appear in the bill.
I hope this clarifies it for you.

Posted by: Jim at August 9, 2009 1:29 PM

From it's own mouth, the Oregon Health Plan shows the future of Obamacare:

State officials say the Oregon Health Plan prioritizes treatments, with diagnoses and ailments deemed the most important, such as pregnancy, childbirth and preventive care for children at the top of the list. Other treatments rank below, officials said.

"We can't cover everything for everyone," Dr. Walter Shaffer, a spokesman for the state Division of Medical Assistance Programs, told the paper. "Taxpayer dollars are limited for publicly funded programs. We try to come up with policies that provide the most good for the most people."

Posted by: elisa at August 9, 2009 1:33 PM

Kevin R, I'm pointing out 1 and only 1 truth that you assclowns keep evading or are in denial with. Offering a premium to pay for patients wanting to seek advice from an expert about advanced care issues does not equate to euthanasia. There's no connection regardless of you loyalty to your party or to insurance giants.

Either you believe this propaganda or you don't.

Even Rep Kingston and other GOPs have himself from Palin exploiting Trig. There are no "death panels" nor will there be; no goverment plans to destroy babies with birth defects. It's strictly fear mongering as that's what the GOP seems to do best.

And your only rebuttal Kevin R is to refer to me as "Marxist" as you have nothing else other than your hatred. You are a coward and a liar.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 9, 2009 1:41 PM

Went to your site, Andy. Try Xanax.

Posted by: Jim at August 9, 2009 1:59 PM

It's strictly fear mongering as that's what the GOP seems to do best.
Posted by: andy42302 at August 9, 2009 1:41 PM

BULLSHIT CANDY ANDY!!!!!!!!! What in the hell do you think the Kenyan and the Demafucks have been doing for the last 6 months. They got people so worked up with bail outs of auto makers and banks and pushed bills through the house and senate without being read. They spent trillions of our money buy scaring the shit out of people. Remember the last bailout my liberal friend? If it didn't get passed more jobs would be lost. It got passed with out any dip shit reading it and what happened CANDY ANDY? More and more jobs were lost. Oh yea!!!! Where is all that money?

Stop with the double standards ANDY! It makes you sound like a Marxist. Maybe we should start calling you KARL.

Posted by: Dave at August 9, 2009 2:10 PM

Jim,

Is Andy still stuck on the Palin thing.

I think he masturbates to her.

Posted by: Dave at August 9, 2009 2:12 PM

I'd say Jim, that the panic issue falls on a great deal of other folks than me. I'm fine. While not wealthy, I'm financially secure, debt free, and well insured. But all that's irrelevant.
But if I were to believe this nonsense that the GOP and Sarah Palin are spewing, that the government wants to my parents and my less than perfect newborn grandchildren, I might be scared.

But those claims are absolute lies. You may have many reasons for being against health reform but to use completely false and debunked fear mongering/ exploiting the elderly for corporate and political gain borderlines evil. And the best you can come up with is some "well you guys are evil too" crap.

Off topic btw, the GOP may pay an ultimate price if they completely destroy any and all hope of ANY reform. They've offered nothing while keeping a very broken system. Something to think about.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 9, 2009 2:14 PM

Dave,
As a matter of fact, I think she's so damn HOT.

That's why I don't want her for POTUS, it's still much easier for me to hit on her as a regular citizen.

ALL conservative women are HOT actually.

I'm a little tired of all these Feminazis with unshaven legs and pits who reek of reefer and menstrual flow incessantly whining about the oppressive patriarchy from their $250,000 per anum UC Berkeley professorships in Feminist Studies when I can't even get a job at Burger King these days.

I hate you Oprah!

Posted by: andy42302 at August 9, 2009 2:47 PM

Brave words, Andy, but you say one thing, your site says another. You have been getting shriller in direct ratio to the fall in the President's ratings.
Your secret fears?
1. You worship a one term president who will be replaced by someone who campaigns on trashing Obama's 'reforms'.
2. You don't really believe that the dissent is coming from misled and frightened seniors. You can see the numbers of young there too.
3. You don't really believe that the Republicans are orchestrating this. They couldn't organize a fun-time in a brewery. It's genuine dissent.

Andy, putting your fingers in your ears doesn't work. Take it from a guy with long experience with people in denial. First step - Xanax.

Posted by: Jim at August 9, 2009 2:55 PM

Posted by: andy42302 at August 9, 2009 2:14 PM

Nice job. I've been waiting for Dave/Jim/whoever to hijack my name. I'm not surprised at all as that's all you have.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 9, 2009 3:15 PM

Jim, what part are you not understanding. Either you've read the bill or you haven't.

Explain how paying for requested end of life counseling means that the government wants to have "death panels" to slaughter the least of the fittest.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 9, 2009 3:27 PM

Off topic btw, the GOP may pay an ultimate price if they completely destroy any and all hope of ANY reform. They've offered nothing while keeping a very broken system. Something to think about.

I'll say this again... We HAVE offered suggestions but continue to get ignored. Just because you choose to ignore the other side does not justify your idiotic partisan bullshit.

It's like me putting $20 on the table, you lighting it on fire in the dead of night, and then proclaiming "You didn't offer anything."

Your are quite the ignorant fuck.

Posted by: AmericanToTheCore at August 9, 2009 4:05 PM

And what exactly did the GOP offer ATTC? Suggestions? You had 8 years and what did we get? Reagan had 8 and Poppy Bush had 4. What did we get? Not a damn thing but catering to the wealthy. But what did we get from the party of no? We got a big "fuck you" unless you donated mass quantities of cash to the GOP.

And btw, explain how paying for requested end of life counseling means that the government wants to have "death panels" to slaughter the least of the fittest.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 9, 2009 4:28 PM

Posted by: andy42302 at August 9, 2009 2:14 PM

LOL Andy!!!!!! For once I totally agree!

Posted by: Dave at August 9, 2009 4:45 PM

"Individuals should be free to manage their own health needs through Flexible Savings Accounts (FSAs) and Medical Savings Accounts (MSAs). These initiatives make a government takeover of health care as anachronistic as surgery without anesthesia. Individuals should be able to roll over excess FSA dollars from one year to the next, instead of losing their unspent money at the end of each year. MSAs should be a permanent part of tax law, offered to all workers without restriction."
Source: Republican Platform adopted at GOP National Convention Aug 12, 2000.

Also, they offered tort reform so that doctors didn't have to go crazy-overboard to protect their ass from ambulance chasers and those who want to push frivolous lawsuits.

Allowing citizens to purchase insurance plans outside of their state. Oh, but I see, that would offer a huge amount of competition which is exactly what demonRATs are against.

Allow transferable plans that aren't bound to employment. The original intent of employer based insurance was to offer an incentive to employees as a way to entice them (would people take a job, or would that take a job that paid the same AND offered benefit? durrrr).

Just so you know, it was unions that continued to push for employer based coverage as a means of bossing their employers and holding the business hostage. Pick up a book... you might learn something.

Allow customization of health insurance options so that people could buy the specific coverage that they choose. As it is now, they are bulk plans that cover things the average person DOES NOT WANT but are forced to buy the bloated plan. It's like cable TV. You may only like 5 channels but you're forced to purchase the basic plan of 68 at a much higher cost just to get your basic 5.

Posted by: AmericanToTheCore at August 9, 2009 4:53 PM

There was also a suggestion offered that would reimburse med students if they went into a field that was facing shortages or if they offered to opt out of specialties (go into the general practicioner realm, where we are incredibly short). This is useful incentive.

The bill at hand will give the government the power TO TELL med students what their position will be and will mandate that ALL DOCTORS MAKE THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY, regardless of area. There is no incentive to go into the medical field at that point.

Posted by: AmericanToTheCore at August 9, 2009 4:59 PM

The song is ended, but the melody lingers on.
Andy, Andy, it's sad reading you. Nobody said that requested end of life counselling means that the government wants to have death panels. Stop getting excited. The expression 'death panel' is a piece of hyperbole to help focus. Statutory interpretation, as I remember it, is that you read the bill as a whole. Read the bill as a whole and you see the mechanisms being put in place for rationing health care. That plus the end of life counselling sends a message for those who have ears to hear.
I have had close personal, almost agonising, experience with people who made the decision to ration their health care. But it was their decision. Not the decision of someone who sits miles away and counts beans.
As to counselling, my dear wife, as gentle a woman as you could ever meet, was offered counselling after her father died following a heart attack. When offered, she replied that she would kick the place down if someone who didn't know her, or her father, 'counselled' her. There are millions who think like that.
Furthermore, and this is the sting as I listen to the protesters, what starts as optional becomes mandatory.

Posted by: Jim at August 9, 2009 5:00 PM

But your commie trash is against ALL those ideas because CHOICE is something that you wish to take away from the people because they apparently aren't capable of making the best decision for themselves. Therefore, your elitist countryclub retards want to legislate because you're the only ones that know what's in the best interest of the people because they're incapable of looking after themselves.

Posted by: AmericanToTheCore at August 9, 2009 5:02 PM

I don't hijack nothing Candy Andy. I am the real deal Holy-feel. Damn I thought it was you.Oh Well.
It's OK to masturbate to Palin Andy.
I'll bet you feel soooooo dirty masturbating to a hot conservative.


Back to the topic. Any notice the elitist attitude the raving bitch was putting out. She talked to those people like they were in high school. She's lucky she didn't get a cane upside that fat head or a walker shoved up her very large ass. We just witnessed typical elitist I'm better than you libtard behavior. That's a good way to get your ass kicked.

Posted by: Dave at August 9, 2009 5:07 PM

I know. Feeding the trolls is fun.

Well at least we have one 'token' troll. Thought that one dedicated troll is quite schyophrenic with all of the different names it uses. One dedicated 'token' troll is better than most sites. At least there is a mouse (oops, rat) to play with.

Posted by: Oiao at August 9, 2009 5:08 PM

ATTC, you mention a 2000 GOP promise that never materialized even though the GOP soon held majority in the House, Senate, and White House. What happened? It was a bullshit promise.

Tort reform would not bring any substantial relief to health cost (about 1.5%) but would cater Big Insurance (plus chastise trail lawyers that donated heavily to the opposition of that era).

But let me tell you why you chicken shits are scared to address this killing grandma and down syndrome babies. It's because it's an outright lie and you know it. But it does help spread fear that works in conjunction with your corporate orchestrated town hall disruption. And that brings us back to my original post on this thread: ----

"Ted, your debunked "assisted suicide" fear mongering is a perfect example of "the seemingly bottomless bag of dirty tricks, misinformation, and hate-mongering the right wing has displayed" that was mentioned above."

There's a nice article on today's WAPO but I understand you not wanting to take in non FOX info that doesn't cow toe to your fear mongering strategy:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/06/AR2009080603854.html

Posted by: andy42302 at August 9, 2009 5:14 PM

Andy I went to your blog again. My God man! you are one sick puppy. Your just like ghost of these nuts.....utter denial. You don't seem to realize that this health care issue was tried before by a lefty in the white house. Remember her name? She tried the same thing that the Kenyan socialist is doing now. It failed. The only difference between the two libtards is that she was the first lady.

Americans are pissed off but you don't see this. You're just another propagandist.

Posted by: Dave at August 9, 2009 5:20 PM

Andy, real analysis of proposed law requires two things: 1) that you've read and understood the bill (and it appears you have and do although the same can't be said for the people who will actually vote on it, both D's and R's), and 2) that you understand how the bill will operate in real life, including the unintended consequences. Dem's ignore the latter, but it's the latter that is essentially the arguments of this bill's opponents.

One thing you are right about - the proposed bill it does NOT require killing grandma. It doesn't even require end of life consultations, it actually provides payment for such consultations and limits payment for them to once every five years.

What's being overlooked here is the passage that requires advance care directives to be signed by a physician to be operative (Sec 1233(hhh)(5)(A)(i)). How many doctors are going to sign a directive then let it grow old without reviewing it? They would have nightmares of malpractice suits claiming they were negligent for following a 10 year old directive.

So the bill does not require end of life counseling every five years - but it's provisions ensure that, in real life, they will happen.

Couple that with the goal of reducing healthcare expenditure. Most healthcare dollars are spent in the last year of life. But when you try to proactively reduce that spending WHO gets to decide when you have reached your last year of life? Doctors will no doubt be held accountable for how they spend taxpayer money. But medicine is as much art as science, full of educated guesses but without the ability to accurately predict the course of any individual's life. Therefore, the only "fair" (and CYA) way to make the decision will be by using statistics. Specific statistics by age, disease, etc., I'm sure, but statistics nonetheless.

And once those statistics are brought into play they will become a self-fulfilling prophecy as treatment is withheld, causing the statistical number to drop.

THAT is why government shouldn't be in charge of our healthcare. Neither Dems nor Reps, and not the insurance companies who are currently pulling the strings. It should be solely the doctors and their patients.

And the Reps have introduced several bills to reform the healthcare system but ALL are being held up in committee. I can't tell you if they are good bills or not; since they are not on the table I haven't taken the time to read them. Trying to plow through the 1000+ plus pages that ARE on the table is time consuming enough. Let the Dems put real alternatives on the table - THEN we'll have some real choices.

Posted by: elisa at August 9, 2009 5:33 PM

They did not have a supermajority like the Dems have. Therefore, they couldn't forcefeed it and, sadly, they weren't able to sell it because the Dems were too busy going party-line against it without plans of their own.

And thus, your argument is moot.

C wut I did thar?

Posted by: AmericanToTheCore at August 9, 2009 5:39 PM

"No, look, I think this is fair. I would point out, though, for example, that when I voted for a tort reform measure that was fiercely opposed by the trial lawyers, I got attacked pretty hard from the left." -- B. Obama

So, where you think the GOP is being orchestrated, funded, and influenced by the insurance companies... it's ok that your guy is giving in to the special interests of trial lawyers (of which many Dems in Congress are) which are a main reason costs are SO DAMN HIGH in our current system?

Convenient that tort reform is off the table after he got lambasted for it... didn't want to put trial lawyers out on their ass but he's content with putting the REAL workers of America out of work and discouraging health innovations by means of stealing the profits from the health industry...

Asshat-ery.

Posted by: AmericanToTheCore at August 9, 2009 5:50 PM

But let me tell you why you chicken shits are scared to address this killing grandma and down syndrome babies. It's because it's an outright lie and you know it. But it does help spread fear that works in conjunction with your corporate orchestrated town hall disruption. And that brings us back to my original post on this thread: ----

Posted by: Karl Marx42302 at August 9, 2009 5:14 PM

Hey dip shit! I'm speaking for my self so listen up! I have not noticed anything in this bullshit legislation on any thing about killing anyone. If I'm wrong then would my fellow conservative give me guidance. What I do know is this; if this bullshit legislation is ever passed it will create a bureaucracy unlike one we have never seen before. What will happen is that you will have some dip shit, like yourself, acting as a gate keeper to Americans health care. This idiot will decide who gets what, when, where and how much. Americans that have grave illnesses will have to wait for treatment because the dip shit Bureaucrats will have you fill out pages upon pages of documentation by the patients as well as the physicians. During this lengthy time people are gonna' die because of this giant bureaucracy created by stupid libtards. Do you want this? I don't. Do you think the shit heads running this country in the ground want this? Hell no. Why in the fuck would you support bullshit like this Candy Andy? How are we going to pay for it? We are already in a deep economic shit hole.

Common sense is definitely something liberals do not have.

Posted by: Dave at August 9, 2009 5:50 PM

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=333759404527100

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/07/30/tort-reform-the-key-to-cutting-health-care-costs/comment-page-1/

Read up on the costs attributed to medical malpractice suits.

Posted by: AmericanToTheCore at August 9, 2009 5:56 PM

http://www.buffalonews.com/149/story/530986.html

Another piece of information.

Posted by: AmericanToTheCore at August 9, 2009 6:00 PM

I have to admit, not only is Sarah Palin a hottie, but I get a 'chubby' when I think about Ronald Reagan swinging that chainsaw and GWB lifting huge heavy loads of brush and wood and stringing up barbed wire around the ranch.

GAWD, conservatives are so MANLY!

Posted by: andy42302 at August 9, 2009 6:07 PM

There is no "forced" grandma killings and despite what Sarah Palin says, there's no government proposals to kill her baby Trig because he has Downs Syndrome.

Let's parse this statement. Would you oppose government efforts to deny medical care to those who don't have much chance of survival as productive workers? Then you're with us. Little known fact: socialist health care systems routinely write off people. For example, the NHS in

Britain does not perform surgery on people above a certain age. You get your three score years and ten, after that it's painkillers and chicken soup. One of my wife's relatives – a former nurse, who knew the score, and subscribed to the decision – was not operated on for breast cancer because she was almost 80. She died of breast cancer last year.

So no, they don't take granny out into the parking lot and shoot her, but they don't do anything to try to prolong her life, either. The effect is the same. If you're OK with that, OK; you're consistent. If not, you're with us.

Look at it from this coldly rational, economic perspective, which views people as factors of production: what interest does the state have in prolonging the lives of those who no longer provide useful work to the state? The ideal scenario for the state is that an individual works his ass off until age 65, the drops dead at his retirement party. Perfecto!

Posted by: Jay Guevara at August 9, 2009 6:20 PM

ATTC, you mention a 2000 GOP promise that never materialized even though the GOP soon held majority in the House, Senate, and White House. What happened? It was a bullshit promise.

There's having a majority, and then there's having a filibuster-proof majority. Two very different beasts.

Tort reform would not bring any substantial relief to health cost (about 1.5%) but would cater Big Insurance (plus chastise trail lawyers that donated heavily to the opposition of that era).

Big Shysters contribute much much more to Democrats than Big Insurance contributes to the Americans. According to Open Secrets, the >insurance industrylawyers/law firms contributed $120,615,106, 71% of which went to Democrats, only 28% of which went to Americans. Why do you suppose that is?

But let me tell you why you chicken shits are scared to address this killing grandma and down syndrome babies

I just did, in my previous post. What you to recognize is that the leftists won't have to gas granny and imperfect infants. They'll just let them die. Allocation of resources and all that. Too bad. So sad. Bye bye. Or should I say, "Da svidanya?"

Posted by: Jay Guevara at August 9, 2009 6:31 PM

Furthermore, think about this. What happens to medical costs incurred by lifestyle? Smokers, drinkers, the obese - the temptation will be there to cut them loose, and deny them coverage. Faggots contracting AIDS? Logically, same boat, yes? And women wanting IVF? Forget it; having half a dozen preemies causes costs to explode.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at August 9, 2009 6:34 PM

Plus, with them pushing homosexuality as normal and brainwashing the minds of our youth we have, in simple terms... POPULATION CONTROL.

More homosexuals (liberal), less children.. which equates to less old people (conservative). The plans have been well-orchestrated on their part to take society on a horribly destructive path. It's been in the works for years and now all minor goals are coming to fruition and we are beginning to piece it all together and, when looking at the picture AS A WHOLE, we are in for a world-of-hurt...

We have a real problem on our hands.

Posted by: AmericanToTheCore at August 9, 2009 6:43 PM

But if this passes women will still get to "choose" abortion! They don't get to choose anything else, but abortion is all that matters!!

/sarc

Posted by: elisa at August 9, 2009 6:46 PM

And since homosexuals detest true Christianity and, couple that with population control, it creates a hole for Islam (which is reproducing faster than rabbits) to INFEST AMERICA.

The "plan" seems irrelevant to some extent when looked at as individual ideas... but when the large goal is realized... oh dead God...

Posted by: AmericanToTheCore at August 9, 2009 6:47 PM

Weewilly, have you read the bill? "if you like your doctor/insurance you can keep your doctor/insurance" is a true statement.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 9, 2009 12:58 PM

this is nothing more than a tacit admission that "95% of americans will get a tax cut(except the 20% of americans who smoke)", "we will create/save 3-4 million jobs(minus the 3 million we lose)", amoung other whoppers spouted by obama are flat-out lies, unless you want to "debunk" those too, remind which line in obamacare explicitly states "you like your doctor/insurance you keep it" after you "read" it right (read=digested the latest talking points)?

Posted by: weewilly at August 9, 2009 6:58 PM

"dead God?" :)

Posted by: elisa at August 9, 2009 7:01 PM

You can only keep your insurance until there is a change in your policy, even just a change in your premiums which for most of us happens every year. Then you cannot re-enroll - you have to choose a government approved plan from the exchange.

So yeah, you get to keep your doctor/insurance FOR NOW. For about a year. Then....not.

Posted by: elisa at August 9, 2009 7:04 PM

*dear God.

Frustration translates into horrible typos.

I admit I'm not perfect.

Posted by: AmericanToTheCore at August 9, 2009 7:06 PM

Sorry, it just tickled my funny bone.

Posted by: elisa at August 9, 2009 7:12 PM

Although, I guess you could look at it either way.

"oh dear God." - as an expression (typical use)...what I intended to use

"oh dead God." - Islam despises the Christian God and would prefer that his people be removed from the face of the Earth. They want to kill God.

Posted by: AmericanToTheCore at August 9, 2009 7:18 PM

I actually did read it both ways, then decided to assume that it was a typo. Freudian slip?

Posted by: elisa at August 9, 2009 7:20 PM

If the shoe fits...

Posted by: AmericanToTheCore at August 9, 2009 7:32 PM

And your only rebuttal Kevin R is to refer to me as "Marxist" as you have nothing else other than your hatred. You are a coward and a liar.
Posted by: andy42302 at August 9, 2009 1:41 PM

Andy, I didn't refer to you a Marxist. I countered one of your arguments and mentioned that your argument about "big bucks" is part of a larger argument from the Marxist lexicon. But nice try, Andy.

Get some help, buddy. My sister used to be a full fledged lefty like you until she went to a psychiatrist for her depression. Now that she got help for her depression she's become normal again. You can get help too.


Posted by: Kevin R. at August 10, 2009 1:18 AM

My post was:

But I've come to learn that truth on this site is irrelevant. Folks here are like that small percentage that believes the sun rotates around the earth.
Posted by: andy42302 at August 9, 2009 12:02 PM

The spin is that the professionals are using "the seemingly bottomless bag of dirty tricks, misinformation, and hate-mongering the right wing has displayed" that we've seen before brought to us by the powerful in order to keep making the big bucks.
Posted by: andy42302 at August 9, 2009 11:10 AM

Andy believes that opposition to the Health Care Bill is a conspiracy from "big bucks." This is the old leftwing belief that capitalists are an evil greedy conspiracy from which socialism will save us.
And we are the ones that "believes the sun rotates around the earth?" You're the one with the dressed-up Marxist conspiracy theory.
Thanks Andy. Anymore warmed-over leftwing conspiracy theories you want to use?
Like I said before Andy, get some help.
Posted by: Kevin R. at August 9, 2009 1:06 PM

Posted by: Kevin R. at August 10, 2009 2:06 AM

And Andy's reply to that is that I'm a coward a liar and that I referred to him as a Marxist!

LOL!!!

Get some help, Andy. Before you drown in your own stew.

Posted by: Kevin R. at August 10, 2009 2:18 AM

elisa, you admit that the end of life counseling spin has been fabricated yet turn right around only to twist it further. You're saying that doctors will be held accountable for not following up on patients so therefore it will be logical that the patient will ultimately be forced to revisit the doctor? And you imply that considering we're all gonna die anyway, it only stands to reason that government will expedite this to save a few tax dollars. I guess you mean like with medicare? Or perhaps like what we're seeing Big Insurance doing more and more to save a few bucks?

So, although this has all been a big spin, well in fact a lie, it's fair game?

Let's clear up this nonsense about not being able to get insurance after a year (I know, like logic has any place at Moonbattery). Sec 101 and 102 require that after a year, Insurance companies are required to meet government standards (just as they due today) before they are allowed to sell you a policy. This mainly means that fly-by-night scammers can't sell inferior or nonexistent coverage. There's really nothing new to this language.

But where you go off the deep end elisa, is with your assinine statement that:

"But if this passes women will still get to "choose" abortion! They don't get to choose anything else, but abortion is all that matters!!"

This demonstrates your absolute blindness and unwillingness to see anything other than what you want to see. You can't dispute this with any credibility but you can join the others (assuming you're not them) in your heckling, distracting, nazi/Marxist/ calling, name hijacking,etc, in order to claim victory of validating nonsense.

But thanks for at least admitting that the bill does not endorse, promote, or encourage fear mongering euthanasia. Seeing someone here waking up to reality is refreshing even though it's only momentary.


Posted by: andy42302 at August 10, 2009 5:11 AM

Andy, read my post again. You have misstated almost everything I said.

Posted by: elisa at August 10, 2009 5:30 AM

(psst, elisa here's a secret: all Marxists routinely lie and distort in order to win power)

tee hee!

Posted by: andy42302 at August 10, 2009 5:44 AM

Then explain elisa, how abortion is the only choice that women will ever have and how the grandfathering clause of section 101 and 102 equates to government mandated insurance. I think you were very clear in your statements. No?

Also, you made it very clear that the wording in section 1233 doesn't state euthanasia but you say it's logical to deduce that it's heading that way. You base this on the assumption that doctors won't sign off for fear that they may not be able to follow up. So "forced visits" or follow ups are the only logical future reality.

Is that correct? Am I missing something?

Posted by: andy42302 at August 10, 2009 5:47 AM

elisa, it's interesting that someone took my name and posted:


(psst, elisa here's a secret: all Marxists routinely lie and distort in order to win power)

tee hee!

Posted by: andy42302 at August 10, 2009 5:44 AM

And then 3 minutes later you responded. But, I've been told that I'd be stalked here so it's not surprising.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 10, 2009 5:53 AM

And Andy glossed right over my remark about the ghoulish Holdren. Indefensible, I guess.

Posted by: Karin at August 10, 2009 5:59 AM

Karin, Obama's selections have nothing to do with taking document language and fabricating it into something it isn't.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 10, 2009 6:12 AM

What was I thinking? That I could have an intelligent conversation with a troll??

I was hoping for debate and instead get accused of sockpuppetry based on the timing of my response.

Now go report me to flag@whitehouse.gov I'm obviously spreading fishy misinformation!

Posted by: elisa at August 10, 2009 6:15 AM

elisa, that's typically funny. You're looking for debate yet you seem to think your comments are exempt from scrutiny. You made 2 statements that were absolutely absurd and I called you out on it, aside from your rationalization of ultimate euthanasia.

You claim that women will ONLY have abortion choices and none other.
You claim that people will have forced insurance after a year with no option of deciding.

Both (all 3 actually) are incorrect and inconsistent with HR3200.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 10, 2009 6:56 AM

I'll try again.

I never said anything about euthanasia, you read that into it. Read it again.

I did not say that people will have no option of private insurance after a year, I said they would not be able to keep "the insurance they now have." Which is entirely accurate. They will have to choose from a government approved plan instead of being to choose from the free market.

Learn what /sarc means.

Posted by: elisa at August 10, 2009 7:08 AM

Fair enough elisa but you're still unclear on your rationale that HR3200 would promote forced decisions on end of life counseling. You made the comment that "Doctors will not doubt be held accountable for how they spend taxpayer money" but what you're missing is that the bill mainly will force Insurance companies to compete. As of now, it is insurance themselves that are denying care.

People WILL BE ABLE to keep their insurance, EVEN AFTER A YEAR. EVEN if they drop their coverage after a year, they can still go back to it---providing that the insurance company meets standards pursuant to section 101. This means that ETNA, BCBS, CIGNA, and many many others will be fair game. You can pick any of those et al, 1,5, 20 yrs later as long as they provide a minimum coverage and have minimum assets to cover claims.
Now if you happen to be insured through Joe Smuckatellie's Hotdog Shop or Sam Drucker's Mercantile and Barber Shop, you can stay with them as long as you like too. But if you leave Joe and Sam after 1 year, they will have to be certified and meet certain credibility standards if they want to sell new policies.
This is actually old language that pertains to Joe and Sam anyways. They aren't able to sell new policies today (there may be a state or two so I could be possibly wrong but don't think so) if they're insolvent and don't offer required coverage. This grandfather clause is only their to close minute loopholes.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 10, 2009 8:02 AM

In all fairness elisa, what you wrote and what I copied and pasted was:

"Doctors will no doubt be held accountable for how they spend taxpayer money"

I misread it and changed the "no" to a "not" but it wasn't intended to make it look like you made the error. My bad.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 10, 2009 8:19 AM

I'm posting on the fly since I'm on lunch break...

"providing that the insurance company meets standards pursuant to section 101"

and there's the problem. Some of the provisions of section 101 are great, like the prohibiting pre-existing conditions exclusion, it's the minimum benefits offered that I don't like.

What we need is MORE choices in our health insurance, not less. Right now our choices are limited because our employers choose our insurance, not us. This bill lets the government choose our insurance, again, not us.

Why does a young healthy man need maternity coverage? What if I would prefer to pay out of pocket for preventive and maintenance care and only carry catastrophic insurance?

One size does not fit all. I want choices and so do many other Americans.

Posted by: elisa at August 10, 2009 12:31 PM

Ultimately, there has to be a minimum coverage. Just like the Progressive commercial, you can customize your own package according to what you want to pay. Pay more, get more.
If you're unhappy with your employer's decision on your coverage, maybe there's a union option or maybe the health reform bill would be better for you. I don't know as I have no idea of your situation.
Your statement that "This bill lets the government choose our insurance, again, not us" is completely false and makes me wonder if you have in fact read the bill. The bill not only allows you to choose your insurance but also puts major providers in a position of becoming more competitive, thus providing you with better coverage at a better price.
During the Clinton years, Big Insurance made around 5 cents on the dollar and enjoyed huge profits. Today they make around 15 to 20 cents and are constantly wanting more. The end result is people like me and your employer paying more to offset the millions that are dropping their coverage or for them to deny coverage for the elderly or the dieing. And that percentage has skyrocketed. The insurance companies are the true "death panels" and will remain so as long as they have advocates like Moonnbattery and the far unhinged right doing their bidding for them.

Posted by: andy42302 at August 10, 2009 2:28 PM

The insurance companies are the true "death panels" and will remain so as long as they have advocates like Moonnbattery and the far unhinged right doing their bidding for them.

But we're the marginalized far-right extremists, andy. You enjoy a liberal in the White House, a House of Representatives firmly controlled by liberals, and a liberal super-majority in the Senate. If you can't convince the majority of America that your plan is a winner (and you obviously can't) and get it passed on your own, it truly must be an epic failure. Sorry, you can't cast us as ineffectual rejects on one hand and then on the other claim we're impeding one single iota of your agenda. You have the reins; time to take the responsibility that goes with the power.

Posted by: cowlove at August 11, 2009 8:25 AM

My wife and I cancelled our membership in AARP. They do not represent the seniors in this country.
We need a new organization that can help us. Let me know if that is a reality.

Posted by: Barry Blum at August 14, 2009 6:21 PM