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but it's FREE!

Hey Nurse Ratched was pretty hot, and a great nurse and worth much more than the number of drinks it took to get her face down, kitty up.

But, but, but...

We had a person post here several weeks back saying that there was only one big scandal in the British Health Care system involving one woman that was denied cancer treatment and everyone in the nation was up in arms over that one lone scandal. But other than that one lone scandal everyone was very satisfied and happy with their socialized health care in Britain. I don't get it. How in the world could that anonymous poster have been so wrong?

I think that some of you are confused here... is the UK health system flawless? Clearly not. Is that what Obama's healthcare plan looks like? No, it isn't. So, I think we should all run around Chinese-fire-drill style and scream about things that won't happen. That adds to the national discourse immeasurably. "I'M LOUDER!"

And lets all take that one extra step and remember that the issue here is that there are literally millions of people here in America who have NO healthcare. No long line to stand in, no chance to get bedsores at a hospital, because no hospital will admit them... are all you 'compassionate conservatives" really so delighted to tell them all to screw off and die?

At what point will you realize that while nobody's system is perfect, there is no legitimate reason that the world's wealthiest country can't provide minimum healthcare for everyone? And without morphing into a facist state, even! Weak....

You still ignore the fact that NOBODY gets turned away at an ER here. Until you understand this, your ignorance will be palpable and infinite.

Hey Anonymous immediately above me. If you're one of us, please state your name.

But but but:

What about Stoned Goats two friends in Canada?

Szot, did you really come here expecting conversions or something?

At what point will you realize that while nobody's system is perfect, there is no legitimate reason that the world's wealthiest country can't provide minimum healthcare for everyone? And without morphing into a facist state, even! Weak....
Posted by: Szot at August 27, 2009 10:18 AM

of course turning over 20% of our economy over to the government won't lead to "fascism", but socialism yes. you can go to any hospital in america and get treatment and by law you cannot be denied, apparently in the NHS of britain everyone has "insurance", but no one seems to get "care". and omfg, if you want "compassionate" conservatives go check out frum or brooks, compassion does not have ANY place in government, the LAW should be the ONLY compassion.

How many friggin times does that '47 million uninsured' number have to be broken down before liberals realize that most of those 'uninsured' choose not to be, are ILLEGAL aliens, are too stupid to enroll in Medicaid or are gaming the current system using other entitlements?
Surely there must be a better alternative to redoing the entire system, which most are happy with for the sake of those who cannot acquire insurance for health, job or financial reasons!!
80 %, that's Eighty f'n per cent of the US are happy with the way it is right now!

Szot,
Here is a legitimate reason: it's illegal since no where in the Constitution is the federal government given the power to provide health care. And if the federal power isn't listed there, it does not exist.

The thinking behind socialized medicine is that you spread the misery around evenly. It like income redistribution.

For example, in Cuba everyone is pretty much equal (except the leadership who get perks) and equally miserable. 85% of Americans are satisfied with their healthcare plans but 15% arent, so you have to make the 85% suffer to make the 15% feel better. Its based on the old saying "misery loves company".

Posted by: JustAl at August 27, 2009 10:56 AM

But don't you get it, JustAl? Szot wants what he wants and he wants it now.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 27, 2009 10:27 AM

Sorry about that Karin... was multi-tasking and forgot to put in my name. Not a fan of using the "remember me" option.

Ok, I'll pose a simple equation that I hope libtards can understand.

EXAMPLE:

I'll use the 15% don't have or don't like healthcare right now.

Therefore (in a simple sense):

85 people = like healthcare/insurance.
15 people = DON'T like current system.

Let's say those in the 85 people group get 10000 units of healthcare each, and, respectively, those 15 people get 0.

Now, let's say health insurance costs $2000/year/person (meaning those 85 people pay that amount).

Now, in socialized medicine, those 85 people will have to, essentially, pay the way for the 15 without.

Therefore, 15 people * $2000 = $30,000.

That $30,000 will have to be paid by the 85 people (in a socialized medicine world). So, $30,000/85 = $352.94 extra will have to have to be paid by EACH of those 85 people to cover the 15 not currently covered.

Each of those 85 people (currently happy) will have to pay $2352.94 whereas they currently only pay $2000. ($2352.94/$2000 = 1.17). They're paying 17% more.

Now, earlier I said that those 85 people get 10000 units of healthcare each. 85*10000= 850000 units of healthcare available. In this NEW system, the units available WILL NOT increase (but decrease, I'll assume stay flat for this equation).

So, now we only have 850,000 units of care to cover 100 people (85+15). 850,000 / 100 = 8500 units of care.

Therefore, each person, under socialized medicine would get 8500 units of care (when they were originally getting 10000... which is a 15% drop in quality) and paying 17% more.

So there, simple math if you're capable of following.

Quality WILL go down (means rationing) for the majority and the majority WILL pay more. But remember, there WILL be less doctors, which means that quality WILL go down further (remember, I assumed no doctor increase or decrease).

"remember that the issue here is that there are literally millions of people here in America who have NO healthcare"

Not quite. EVERYBODY in America has access to healthcare, some just don't have health insurance. Pretty big difference.

We already have a good example of what is in store for us nurse-wise in the states if we go down this road. I can remember when nurses became nurses because they wanted to help people...then in came the unions and can any of you really say that quality of nursing here isn't bad enough already...thanks to the unions? When my son cut the end of his finger off in a saw accident I had to watch as a doctor had to BEG a nurse...who was too busy sitting on her overly wide ass gossiping....for a suture kit.
HE BEGGED.
I wasn't that nice...I finally just shoved Dr. Beta Male out of the way and hissed at her that if she ever wanted to watch another soap opera and eat brownies with a full set of teeth she would get off her GInormous caboose and get the suture kit NOW.
And the doctor? He was the head of medicine at this small hospital....and he made no bones about the fact that he had to watch what he said and did because of the UNIONS.

Good analysis, ATTC. And the lefties wonder in dismay why we are fighting this with everything we've got.

Yeah, I just smacked them with facts.

OH NOES... TEH SCARY FACTS IZ GUN' HURTED ME.

Liberals will go above and beyond when it comes to denying reality to further their flawed agenda.

Somehow, nobody here appears to be aware that there is no massive plan secretly in the works to kill you all... or even to kill your insurance.

If the current insurance system is sooo good, there is nothing to worry about. Right? You will all decide that no matter what the government option offers, you want your private insurance. You will pay for it, and in a capitalist system, whatever the market will support is what the going rate will be. So if you think you are getting good value for the $ right now, then you would not change to the public plan no matter what.

So, if all of the republicans out there who are so afraid of the government plan stay out of the government plan, none of the private insurers will have to worry. This is some pretty simple economics...

If the free-market system works for healthcare, then you have nothing to worry about.

I cna already hear you all saying "but the government will out-compete the private companies and force them out of business!" (Don't say it. It makes no sense. If you are willing to pay for the plan you have now, then there is no 'out-compete'. It is only if there is a marked improvement in cost-effectiveness or value, that the private companies will die out.)

All you free-market-no-matter-what people should really think about that before you freak out about healthcare reform... if you really believe what you are saying, then you have nothing to fear.

ATTC -

You are really bad at that 'math' thing, huh?

"Now, in socialized medicine, those 85 people will have to, essentially, pay the way for the 15 without."

Under the current iteration, everyone will have to carry insurance. So those 15% will ALSO pay. Making all of your math... wrong.

Nice work! Flawed premise, willful ignorance... you run the republican gamut!

Szot - yes, you are correct. If they really understood what they were saying, they would not be concerned. The question now becomes: are they unclear on how the free-market system works, do they not believe that private companies are actually good enough to keep their customers, or is it all just about the hatred of Obama, with the far-right just objecting to everything no matter what. Dunno...

An interesting question, to be sure...

You do realize those 15 people (which equates to 15%) are the people that liberals say "ZOMG CAN'T AFFORD HEALTHCAREZ" because of poverty, right?

Therefore, WE WILL FOOT THE BILL... Your ignorance is showing.

Thank you for proving that your supposed "uninsured" numbers are flawed from the get-go. Go go number-fudger.

Also...

It will drive private insurance out (no doubt about) because they will force tax dollars from everyone to subsidize the public option. Therefore, people in private insurance plans will pay THEIR way AS WELL AS pay towards the subsidization of the public option. Case and point, it will be impossible for private insurance to keep customers, leading to no more private insurance industry.

Thank you for stifling business, encouraging unemployment and discouraging quality healthcare.

And you do this all in the name of social justice and "GETTIN MYNE BACK FROM TEH EVIL WHITE CONSERVATIVES WHO DUN PROMOTE CAPITALIZM" at the expense of, well, everyone's standard of living so that you can have your twisted utopian state of third-world proportions that includes gub'mint stealing from providers and giving to leeches.

You, sir, epitomize all that is wrong with liberals.

Hilarious. You are apparently unaware that ATTC's perception of the 'plan' is NOT in fact anything like the actual plan for healthcare reform...

Just another republican who didn't read it, won't read it, but WILL form strong opinions about what he was TOLD is in the bill... especially if it gives him an opportunity to complain about Obama. After all, you have to have something... right?

Remember right after the election, when every dip in the DOW was Obama's fault? And we were "under imminenet attack!", and "Obama will doom us all!"... and yet still we are here, unemployment rate is dropping agian, the DOW is back up, and somehow the fabric of society is still holding together. It is even easier to be a traveler in the world as an American these days. Everything just seems better (to those of us not under the blanket of fear, of course).

Being afraid of the boogeyman is reasonable if you are 4 years old... bt aren't any of you people a little embarrassed to be acting like this as adults?

"How many friggin times does that '47 million uninsured'
"Posted by: Shooter1001 at August 27, 2009 10:46 AM"

It's FIFTY SIX million, now. I guess that the other number wasn't SCARY enough.

"Somehow, nobody here appears to be aware that there is no massive plan secretly in the works to kill you all... or even to kill your insurance."

Oh no! They want to KIIILLLLL us! Why do you stupid Liberals deal ONLY in extreams?

"If the current insurance system is sooo good, there is nothing to worry about. Right?"

Except that no matter what gets passed into law, there will be a RADICAL change in the system that will affect us all.

"You will all decide that no matter what the government option offers, you want your private insurance."

Yes we do. So the government should stay the hell out of OUR decisions.

"You will pay for it, and in a capitalist system, whatever the market will support is what the going rate will be. So if you think you are getting good value for the $ right now, then you would not change to the public plan no matter what."

Great, but why do we HAVE TO pay for the government plan with our TAXES? And make no mistake, there will be NEW taxes to pay for this mess.
Then there is the provision in the government plan that says that insurers can NOT take on more clients after the bill becomes law. The only option left would be what the GOVERNMENT says you can have.

"So, if all of the republicans out there who are so afraid of the government plan..."

Republicans? I'm a DEMOCRAT. And I'm not the only one that's worried about this.

"...stay out of the government plan, none of the private insurers will have to worry. This is some pretty simple economics..."

But it's a GOVERNMENT plan, which is as far from "simple" as you can get.
Want to talk "ecconomics"? Let's say that you have a lemonaid stand. The local government opens a lemonaid stand across the street and finances it with TAXES which YOU have to pay. How long do you think you would stay in business? If, by some miracle, you manage to undercut their prices, the GOVERNMENT can just hit you with SPECIAL TAXES or FINES.

"If the free-market system works for healthcare, then you have nothing to worry about."

Government-run and free-market are two diffrent things. Learn simple ecconomics.

"I cna already hear you all saying "but the government will out-compete the private companies and force them out of business!" (Don't say it."

Too late, I already did.

"It makes no sense."

Yes it does. How can we compete against someone we have to GIVE MONEY TO?

"If you are willing to pay for the plan you have now, then there is no 'out-compete'."

The government plan will be backed by OUR MONEY and by laws passed in it's favor. Do you have no inkling of the power governments wield? Either you don'tor you think the federal government is made up of philanthrapists.

"It is only if there is a marked improvement in cost-effectiveness or value, that the private companies will die out.)"

Or if they can't compete with soemone who LITERALY has a license to print money.

"All you free-market-no-matter-what people should really think about that before you freak out about healthcare reform... if you really believe what you are saying, then you have nothing to fear.
"Posted by: Szot at August 27, 2009 1:14 PM"

The free market is something that is LIGHTLY regulated by the government. In the case that you seem so endeared with, they would be CONTROLING the market.

Now I have a question for YOU: Just what makes you think that government-run healthcare will be BETTER than private healthcare when it has FAILED wherever it has been tried?

Looks like anon is bad at the reasoning thing, ay ATTC?

Szot, you obviously haven't seen the videos where Obama, Sebelius, Emmanuel, Frank and others made it very clear that their end game is to create a single payer system. This is why we don't believe them when they act coy about us "being able to keep our own insurance." We know that is not what they want at all, they are just moving toward their goal incrementally, starting with a "public option."

And as long as we're on the topic of whether there is a master plan to screw up health care, can you tell me if there was a master plan to screw up "Cash for Clunkers"? Because, if not, they did a bang up job screwing it up, nonetheless.

Unemployment started spiking when demonRATS took control.

Double-dip recession imminent.

Elaboration on the double-dip recession by Roubini

Rep. Conyers complains about reading the bill, yet wholely endorses it. Oh yeah, he said he needs lawyers to decipher it (HE'S A LAWYER btw) - He's had more than those 2 days now and has yet to express his "reading the bill."

Good work on the GDP there champ.

Millions of jobs go missing... convenient that it begins, again, when demonRATs took control

Let's say that you have a lemonaid stand. The local government opens a lemonaid stand across the street and finances it with TAXES which YOU have to pay. How long do you think you would stay in business? If, by some miracle, you manage to undercut their prices, the GOVERNMENT can just hit you with SPECIAL TAXES or FINES.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up but there is a little expansion to be done.

Government run things are, essentially, non-profit (well, they're theoretically supposed to be but we know who gets the steak). If government doesn't have to cut a profit but private insurers do (because, you know, they have employees... but you apparently want everyone on the government dole), then private insurance WILL cease to be. It's simple.

Plus, like KHarn and I said, WE will have to subsidize the public plan as well as our own plan. Therefore, we get double-f***ed. Private insurance has to make a profit and their customers ALSO have to fund the public option.

Thanks anonymous for being so delusional and providing many laughs.

And what about the little girl who was removed from a town hall meeting for just asking a question?

Being afraid of the boogeyman is reasonable if you are 4 years old... bt aren't any of you people a little embarrassed to be acting like this as adults?

Says the guy whose side claims that everyone who owns a gun wants to shoot the president, and if Republicans are ever a majority again, sex will be outlawed and rape will be mandatory (somehow).

You know, I often wonder if these "anonymous" people are the same person or if they are, in fact, different people... but equally blind.

Either way, seems as though they tucked their tail and ran in this thread as well.

But please, do come back tomorrow. Tearing you apart "sends tingles up my leg." Ha, no... but seriously, come back time and time again. Your sheer ignorance needs to be kept in line by the logic, reason, fact and intellect that those who frequent this board exude, yet you ignore. Hopefully we're making a dent but I'm not gonna bet on it.

the gay percentage of the population is less than 5%. However WE have to accept them and bow to their wishes/demands amnd treat them like mainstream. Same thing with the healthcare debacle. The majority either must rise up and demand whats right or be subjected to the whims of a petty jelouse minority. We have to take classes at work to deal with a guy who wears dresses to work but, he dosent have to take a class to deal with me. sheeeeeeeeeeit.

Abortion and euthibasia are murder