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August 13, 2009

Open Thread

obama-bumper-stickers.jpg
These and many more available at Up Yours Obama. On a tip from Eric.

Posted by Van Helsing at August 13, 2009 11:03 AM

Comments

Posted by: V the K at August 13, 2009 11:26 AM

From Investor's Business Daily:

"The controlling of medical costs in countries such as Britain through rationing, and the health consequences thereof, are legendary. The stories of people dying on a waiting list or being denied altogether read like a horror script … People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the UK, where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless."

Yet this above post misses one kind of important point...STEPHEN HAWKING LIVES IN THE UK! His response:

"I wouldn't be here today if it were not for the NHS. I have received a large amount of high-quality treatment without which I would not have survived."


But hey, who cares that Stephen Hawkings is out there promoting how well NHS has worked for him and people like him? He's only the smartest man alive, what does he know?

Posted by: You are being lied to at August 13, 2009 11:26 AM

Posted by: V the K at August 13, 2009 11:27 AM

Let's see, Stephen Hawking lives on the campus of Oxford university, and has VIP access to the university hospital system; the same way party apparatchiks in the Soviet Union and Cuba had special access to hospitals the proletariat did not.

For the average Briton, who can't get access to breast cancer drugs that NHS deems too expensive, who can only be treated for macular degeneration in one eye because both eyes would be too expensive, to those who have to wait outside the hospital in ambulances because there's no way to admit them, the people who perform DIY dental surgery, to women who are only allowed one six-month window of fertility treatments, ... NHS is a very different proposition indeed.

Posted by: V the K at August 13, 2009 11:32 AM

Hey You Are Being Lied to by Me...

What if it was John Q English Public? Would he get the same treatment as Stephan Hawkin? I doubt it.

"Well, you're just a coal miner. You're probably already dead from black-lung; so sorry".

Posted by: hiram at August 13, 2009 11:41 AM

Too bad the same logic isn't applied to the labor market where one's pay is according to one's skills in the open market. GM and the Post Office would be thriving.

Posted by: IOpian at August 13, 2009 11:46 AM

STEPHEN HAWKING?????? he's a sock puppet for Kim Jon Il. Have you ever heard him speak or seen him write? NOOOOOO. He needs an 'interpreter' for everything. The guy can't even piss or take a dump on his own and HE'S A FRIGGIN POSTER BOY FOR NHS..... W T F???!!!

That's like having Woody Allen as a poster boy for 'Abs of Steel'

DIPSHIT!

Posted by: Anonymous at August 13, 2009 11:54 AM

These same people who point to British VIP's who get good health care would never accept the proposition that since Michael Jordan and Oprah Winfrey are successful, there is no need for affirmative action.

Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at August 13, 2009 11:56 AM

Posted by: AmericanToTheCore at August 13, 2009 11:58 AM

Chairman Zero has virtually shut down energy exploration in the United States, but his administration is loaning $10 Billion in taxpayer money to Brazil to drill for oil there.

Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at August 13, 2009 12:07 PM

The real ironic part is if Stephen Hawking's mother had had him genetically tested in the womb and found out he would develop Lou Gehrig's disease, the leftist response would have been, "Abort this inferior specimen so he won't be a burden on our society."

Posted by: V the K at August 13, 2009 12:21 PM

And isn't it awfully interesting how Hawking didn't have such renown until he wasn't able to communicate himself personally? I think he is a convenient sock puppet for all things Leftist. Actually the poor guy is crying silently inside himself over and over: "YOU CRAZY MOONBATS!"

Posted by: Anonymous at August 13, 2009 12:25 PM

Stephen Hawking has a low quality of life, some of Obamas Czars would deem him a useless eater.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 13, 2009 12:33 PM

Furthermore, the only lies we are enduring are coming from king zero and his bots. For information, we go directly to the source. The actual bill.

Posted by: Karin at August 13, 2009 1:21 PM

You are being lied to: damn straight. They won't listen, as their position has very little to do with fact and everything to do with the sense that America is moving on without them, but I appreciate all to hell and back your effort to try and point out the logical holes.

Fight the good fight....


Posted by: "Meh" at August 13, 2009 1:23 PM

Meh haven't you figured it out yet? We don't want to progress down the road of the government telling us what to eat and drink and when to die. America was founded on indivdualism and freedom of choice. Now do you understand?

Posted by: Farmer Ted at August 13, 2009 1:26 PM

Check out this idea for a bumper sticker:

"How many of you morons thought you were voting for Tiger Woods?"

Posted by: GeekNerd at August 13, 2009 1:27 PM

BTW, it looks like the Finance Committee is going to drop the Death Panels from the ObamaCare bill. Score one for Sarah Palin!

Posted by: V the K at August 13, 2009 1:28 PM

"We don't want to progress down the road of the government telling us what to eat and drink and when to die."

I thought we had all agreed that you are completely insane if you actually think that is what is happening here...? You want to be the one that says it out loud? Here we go: "I think the government is coming to kill me!" Clearly there is a rush of volunteers to be the guy who admits to that kind of faulty brainpower...

The day that ObamaCare, full version, hits the Senate floor... I want to see you here on this website apologizing for being incredibly naive and thinking that we will be killed by the government. And I also want to be sure that you send back your unchashed Social Security check, never enroll in Meidcare, and (while you're at it) make sure you never again drive on one of the 'socialist' interstate highways. "That damn gov'mint took my money and all i got was the ability to go from coast to coast on smooth, paved, contiguous roads! what the f^%*!"

Stop pretending that the government has no useful purpose, and let them accomplish that purpose: to manage giant things that only governments can manage.

I also have to add to the Hawking discussion w/ VtK: Are you contending that being a college professor makes one a part of the VIP-elite? Seriously??? Academia has many benefits (mostly odf the 'never-have-to-meet-sheeple' variety... and the parties are great) but never has the college professor been referred to as the Elite. Wanna rethink that one? Or you sticking with it?

Yeah. Right. Anything to keep your fable together, it appears.

Posted by: "Meh" at August 13, 2009 1:38 PM

ROTFLMAO!!!! EXCELLENT!

Posted by: TED at August 13, 2009 1:47 PM

Posted by: TED at August 13, 2009 1:49 PM

Why would I not enroll in Medicare? I FUCKING PAID FOR IT! It's a failed system but those who have paid into it deserve to get something out of it.

What you're saying is that it's not OK to hate it, even though it was FORCED upon us? The money that we put into it would have served US better if WE had used OUR money in alternative ways. You, sir, need to seek a brick wall and run straight into it.

Also, are we not allowed to collect SS because we don't like it? Please, we paid into it and fucking deserve to have our money refunded in some manner.

And do you not realize that we were FORCED into paying for the interstate highways? Of course we're going to use something that our money got put into.

I swear you have the most illogical argument, ever.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 13, 2009 1:49 PM

I don't read her stuff. Better things to do.

Posted by: Karin at August 13, 2009 1:54 PM

Yes, Medicare is an example of socialism. It is also on the verge of bankruptcy and will require massive tax increases to sustain in its current form. It also incorporates $70 to $120 Billion a year in waste, inefficiency, and outright fraud.

It seems misguided for the left to point at Medicare and say, "That's why we should nationalize health care."

Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at August 13, 2009 1:57 PM

Stop pretending that the government has no useful purpose, and let them accomplish that purpose: to manage giant things that only governments can manage.
Posted by: "Meh" at August 13, 2009 1:38 PM

I would say that is a false choice on what the purpose of government is. It isn't that the government has no useful purpose or the government is instituted to do giant things. That is a false choice.

"Meh," what do you think the framers of the constitution would have said about using the government for a giant health care bill?


Posted by: Kevin R. at August 13, 2009 1:58 PM

Moonbats want more government health care in addition to medicare and medicade.

Answer this question moonbats.

How do we pay for it? For get about the other shit that we are all bitching about.

The bottom line is how do we pay for it?

A lot of money is at issue here as well as quality of lives.

Please use common sense moonbats even though you guys lack it.

Posted by: Dave at August 13, 2009 2:08 PM

"GeekNerd at August 13, 2009 1:27 PM"

Good one! I think more people were excited about Tiger Woods than Hopey McChange.

"Meh" and Lied To;
How much more CONTROL do you think the federal government should have? Since you want it to have more than it has now, you seem to thnk that it should be unlimited.

Just remember, another GEORGE BUSH type may be elected and will have the absolute control you are now demanding. But then again, you people may think that you will ELIMINATE everyone who does not think, talk, act, dress and vote EXACTLY like you in the next few years.

But wouldn't doing that just "make more terrorists"?

Posted by: KHarn at August 13, 2009 2:26 PM

Black Man Posed as White Supremacist and Send Death Threats to Black Students. This is why I don't believe that swastika spray painted on the congressman's office was legit.

Posted by: V the K at August 13, 2009 2:27 PM

"And do you not realize that we were FORCED into paying for the interstate highways? Of course we're going to use something that our money got put into."

And again you miss the point... yes, you were 'forced' to pay for it. And ... IT WORKED. It is something giant, useful, and possible ONLY by the government. See how that does an excellent job of proving my point? Want to talk about the Hoover Dam? There are other examples here guys - Come now...

So, let's try to stop villifying everything the government can possibly do/has ever done and acknowledge that there are indeed times when forcing through something that needs to be done is the right thing to do.

Do we have consensus on that single data point?

Posted by: "Meh" at August 13, 2009 2:45 PM

i think some of us make a mistake in thinking these bats argue in good faith, their only objective is winning, lies are merely tools to advance a position for them, sadly they will be the first against the wall when their "utopia" manifests itself.

Posted by: weewilly at August 13, 2009 2:47 PM

Here's something interesting, Forbes releases a list of America's 10 Fastest Dying Cities:

http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/04/economy-ohio-michigan-biz_cx_jz_0805dying.html

When I cross reference this with a list of American's 25 most liberal cities, and America's 25 most conservative cities:

http://govpro.com/content/gov_imp_31439/

I find 4 of America's most liberal cities, on the fastest dying list. They are according to their liberal ranking:

1 - Detroit, MI
10 - Flint, MI
11 - Cleveland, OH
25 - Buffalo, NY

None of America's most conservative cities made the fastest dying list.

The remainder of the fastest dying cities are:

Canton, OH
Youngstown, OH
Scranton, PA
Dayton, OH
Springfield, MASS
Charleston, WV

Posted by: J at August 13, 2009 2:49 PM

case in point, they never address the question of "costs", medicare and ss are "good" that's their default position no introspection about their viability, sorry but holding up failed programs does not make the case.

Posted by: weewilly at August 13, 2009 2:51 PM

So, let's try to stop villifying everything the government can possibly do/has ever done and acknowledge that there are indeed times when forcing through something that needs to be done is the right thing to do.

The problem here is that we're not talking about building a road, which is a static object. We're instead talking about the creation of a brand new bureaucracy, and creation of inappropriate red tape between the doctor and the patient.

It's a matter of historical fact, that government solutions tend to amplify the very problems that they are designed to solve. So vilifying the government is more often than not, the correct thing to do.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 13, 2009 2:53 PM

And again you miss the point... yes, you were 'forced' to pay for it. And ... IT WORKED. It is something giant, useful, and possible ONLY by the government. See how that does an excellent job of proving my point? Want to talk about the Hoover Dam? There are other examples here guys - Come now...

You seem to think that, because one idea worked, CLEARLY the rest will work. I'm not saying that the government fails every time but they have a HORRRRRRRRIBLY bad track record.

Therefore, it's only logical for us to question government control of an entire institution.

They have given the American people little in the way of believing the crap that they shovel towards us. Although some of it has good intentions, that doesn't mean that the process of achieving said goal is justified.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 13, 2009 2:55 PM

Posted by: Anonymous at August 13, 2009 2:53 PM

He makes a very good point. Roads are static objects... they're built and mildly maintenanced, that's the end of it.

Healthcare is a continuously evolving, changing, improving, living institution that adapts to scientific innovations which alter its very being.

Understanding that it's ever-changing, it should scare anyone because, with gov't control, it will change dramatically from administration to administration and it will be susceptible to emotions and bureaucratic mud-slinging from those in power. As we have now, our representatives get a distaste in their mouth at the thought of ACTUALLY representing the will of the people.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 13, 2009 3:00 PM

Posted by: V the K at August 13, 2009 2:27 PM

Yep.....lets do everything we can to get whitey.


Cheaters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Dave at August 13, 2009 3:07 PM

My GOD!!!! I've been reading various threads on this blog and the liberal trolls are infesting this place. Looks like since the congressional recess started these mindless robots got switched on and received marching orders. All these liberal Anonypussies are like fleas on a dog without frontline to protect them. Who is this libtard Meh. This idiot is a complete socialist pig. He must be a welfare recipient. Even Brandy is back.

WAIT A MINUTE HERE!!!!!!!!

What am I thinking?!

All these liberal fucktards are scared to death because their about to lose everything in a few months. YEP!! fear is what drives these stupid libtards and I do mean stupid.

I think I'll go to Moveon.org and watch these idiots panic. It should be a good chuckle.

Posted by: Dave at August 13, 2009 3:47 PM

Dave, you dare set foot into the deep backwoods of the fever swamp??? (shudder). Brave man.

I would have to shower with scalding water for six days solid to get the slime off.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 13, 2009 3:54 PM

Disinfecting now, anon.

Where's my bleach?

Posted by: Dave at August 13, 2009 3:58 PM

Obama's Cultists Now Advertising Non-Existent Town Halls to Trick Protesters

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/13/supporters-obamas-health-care-plan-push-town-hall-protesters/

Posted by: J at August 13, 2009 4:08 PM

Racist Sock Puppet Facing Five Years

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/198459.php

Posted by: J at August 13, 2009 4:14 PM

Purple Shirts Join Pro-Obamacare Coalition-- Launch $12 Million TV Ad Campaign ...Update: More Astroturfing

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/08/purple-shirts-join-pro-obamacare.html

Dem "Blue Dog" Says Town Hall Protesters Are "Political Terrorists" (Video)

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/08/more-dem-rep-says-town-hall-protesters.html

Bus--ted... Obama Bussed In Supporters For New Hampshire Town Hall (Video)

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/08/bus-ted-obama-bussed-in-supporters-for.html

Dem Rep Who Opposes Photo ID To Vote Requires Photo ID For Town Halls

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/08/dem-rep-who-opposes-photo-id-to-vote.html

Posted by: J at August 13, 2009 4:22 PM

Meh there is a syaing you may want to remember. Assuming is the mother of all fuckups. I said nothing about the government trying to kill me,I simply stated, and you proved, that you have no idea what this country was founded on and what the majority of Americans don't want. That would too much government interference in our lives. Now do you get it dumbass?

Posted by: Farmer Ted at August 13, 2009 4:50 PM

HEY MOONBATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You still haven't answered the question I asked.

How are we going to pay for government health care?

All you moonbats come here acting so smart and intellectually superior I thought maybe at least one of you guys could come up with an answer to a direct question.

ARE YOU DIPS SHITS SCARED TO ANSWER A DIRECT QUESTION?!

You defend this socialist program so radically tell me how you are going to pay for it.

Which one of you libtards sissies is gonna' man up?

Posted by: Dave at August 13, 2009 4:59 PM

Since healthcare plays a key role in increasing the average lifespan that we have today, you might expect a country with 'disastrous' health care would have a significantly lower life expectancy. Let's go look, shall we?

Cia Life Expectancy Table

oh look, the English live a year longer than we do, and Canadians live longer than the English! I guess their disastrous health care isn't having any effect.

Where's your commonsense now, conservative lemmings?

Posted by: Brandon at August 13, 2009 5:01 PM

Dave, why don't you calm down and learn some manners?

Posted by: Brandon at August 13, 2009 5:02 PM

Dave, why don't you calm down and learn some manners?

Posted by: Brandon at August 13, 2009 5:02 PM

Brandy!!!! How nice to hear from ya'!

LOL!!!! That means you can't answer because you're afraid


why don't you answer the question smart guy?
Common Brandy man up.

I see you are still producing skewed facts.

Posted by: Dave at August 13, 2009 5:10 PM

YEEEEEEEEE-HAWWWWWWWWWW! servers going down at white house dot gov! it appears they're receiving quite a high volume of traffic...*;]

Posted by: nancz at August 13, 2009 5:18 PM

Oh yea....you want me to learn some manners?

I will when you stop acting like a condescending liberal bitch boy.

Brandy is an elitist socialist liberal pig.

LOL!

Answer the question if you dare.

BTW my answer is simple....we can't afford government health care because we're fucking broke. I blame that on libtards.

I can hear it now...BBBBBBBBOOOOOOOOSH put us in the poor house.

LOL!

Posted by: Dave at August 13, 2009 5:20 PM

Calling Dr. Mayer , Dr. Fine , Dr. Mayer....

Posted by: Dr. Carlo Lombardi at August 13, 2009 5:29 PM

Clyburn compares town hall protesters to thugs who attacked civil rights marchers

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/13/its-come-to-this-clyburn-compares-town-hall-protesters-to-thugs-who-attacked-civil-rights-marchers/

Posted by: J at August 13, 2009 5:32 PM

Calling Brandy.........

Posted by: Dave at August 13, 2009 5:33 PM

Posted by: nancz at August 13, 2009 5:18 PM

Is it the mob?

LOL!!

Posted by: Dave at August 13, 2009 5:35 PM

Life expectancy is more a function of lifestyle than health care. Here are some more relevant measures:

Fact No. 1: Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers. e.g. Prostate cancer mortality is 604 percent higher in the U.K. and 457 percent higher in Norway.

Fact No. 2: Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians.

Fact No. 3: Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries. E.G 56 percent of Americans who could benefit are taking statins, which reduce cholesterol and protect against heart disease. By comparison only 36 percent of the Dutch, 29 percent of the Swiss, 26 percent of Germans, 23 percent of Britons and 17 percent of Italians receive them.

Fact No. 4: Americans have better access to preventive cancer screening than Canadians.

Fact No. 5: Lower income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians.

Fact No. 6: Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the U.K.

Fact No. 7: People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed. More than 70 percent of German, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand and British adults say their health system needs either “fundamental change” or “complete rebuilding.”

Fact No. 8: Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians. More than half of Americans (51.3 percent) are very satisfied with their health care services, compared to only 41.5 percent of Canadians

Fact No. 9: Americans have much better access to important new technologies like medical imaging than patients in Canada or the U.K. The United States has 34 CT scanners per million Americans, compared to 12 in Canada and eight in Britain. The United States has nearly 27 MRI machines per million compared to about 6 per million in Canada and Britain.

Fact No. 10: Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations. The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other single developed country. Since the mid-1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to American residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined.

I also note Chris "Countrywide" Dodd and Ted "Doublewide" Kennedy are not seeking cancer treatment in Canada, Britain, or Cuba.

Posted by: V the K at August 13, 2009 5:36 PM

Posted by: V the K at August 13, 2009 5:36 PM

Like I said Brany.... you post skewed facts.

Posted by: Dave at August 13, 2009 5:38 PM

Uh Oh. For the last week, Obama and Big Pharma have been denying they had a secret deal to promote ObamaCare. Guess what? They were lying.

Your president is a big fat liar, and he just got caught. Again.

Posted by: V the K at August 13, 2009 5:45 PM

Brandon, it's very important for you to understand that your taking the debate in an incorrect direction.

While the issue of what constitutes superior health care, private industry vs. government run, certainly has many horror stories proving the latter is inferior in every way to any reasonable human being, it completely sidesteps the real issue.

And the real issue is this.

Government run health care is philosophically incorrect, even if the fantasies touting it as superior were true, because it is quite simply not government's place to make health care decisions for the individual. Those decisions should lie with the patient and doctor, and absolutely no one else. Absolutely no regard whatsoever should be given to counterproductive snake oil concepts such as social justice in these decisions.

This is an issue of Liberty, not of life expectancy.

Regardless, life expectancies rely more heavily on criteria such as genetics, lifestyles, diet, exercise, etc. than on the availability of health care.

Posted by: J at August 13, 2009 5:45 PM

Newly elected Democrats waver on health plan

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/72feb2fa-8846-11de-82e4-00144feabdc0.html

Posted by: J at August 13, 2009 5:55 PM

there are indeed times when forcing through something that needs to be done is the right thing to do.

I couldn't agree more. We need to force through legislation banning the Communist Party, and mandating the death penalty for all drug pushers. How's that for the first two? /kidding to make a point

Posted by: Jay Guevara at August 13, 2009 6:04 PM

Another modest proposal for government-run healthcare: no healthcare for welfare recipients. So parasites die off. Problem? No problem. /again kidding to make a point

Posted by: Jay Guevara at August 13, 2009 6:05 PM

The Secret Plan to Defeat the Right Forever

http://www.redstate.com/absentee/2009/08/13/the-secret-plan-to-defeat-the-right-forever/

Posted by: J at August 13, 2009 6:08 PM

Actually Jay you might be kidding, but those are good points in my opinion.


Brandy!! You took the bait. Can answer the question?

Posted by: Dave at August 13, 2009 6:10 PM

there are indeed times when forcing through something that needs to be done is the right thing to do.

Unfortunately, supporting government run health care is always the wrong thing to do.

Posted by: J at August 13, 2009 6:13 PM

How about this: Obama Weeps During Town Hall. Ha! Can you believe this guy?

Posted by: Phil at August 13, 2009 6:25 PM

New poll shows voters ignoring Dem message on town halls

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/08/new_poll_shows_voters_ignoring.html

Posted by: J at August 13, 2009 6:40 PM

Brandy....cut and ran did ya'?

Chicken shit liberal robot.

Posted by: Dave at August 13, 2009 6:58 PM

Still, if the Brittish system was really a disaster, if it was really killing a significant number of people, it should make a significant impact on life expectancy. It doesn't. The hyperbole from the right isn't reflected at all in life expectancy, when your leaders tell you that you will be more likely to die under government run health care, they are lying to you.

Posted by: Brandon at August 13, 2009 7:10 PM

Brandine, here's a newsflash. You're not just likely to die, it's pretty much inevitable you're going to die ... someday... under *any* health care system.

The question is, how are you going to live? As a free man, or as a serf and vassal to the state? Are you going to be an independent, self-responsible person making his own choices in life; or are you going to let a cadre of bureaucrats make them for you?

Posted by: V the K at August 13, 2009 7:16 PM

Brandy will be a ward of the state. Lazy ass liberal he is.

Once again I ask how are we going to pay for government health care? Liberal, like brandy, like to so called debate the subject but no one has even brought up how we are going to pay for it. Probably it's because they haven't a fucking clue.

Posted by: Dave at August 13, 2009 7:35 PM

Brandon,

The reason that the hyperbole from the right isn't reflected at all in life expectancy is because life expectancy is determined by much more than just health care or lack therof, and therefore is simply not a relevant issue in the health care debate. A simple fact that you choose to willfully ignore.

Second, you keep attempting to drive the debate down an incorrect road.

Whether or not the British system is the greatest in the world, is beside the point.

The point is that government run health care is philosophically incorrect, because it inappropriately places bureaucrats in charge of decisions that they have no business making.

It is not a question of which country has superior health care, it is a question of which country's health care system facilitates maximum Liberty. (Though the notion that the British system is superior is silly, one only needs to see them smile.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAbaMS12aDY

Tyrannical despots and oligarchies throughout history, have used withholding (rationing) of health care as one method to keep the people under their heel more compliant and easier to oppress.

But yes, people are more likely to die under a government health plan, because that is the history of government run health care in the world.

Besides, it's just as Obama himself said, between UPS, FedEx, and the Post Office, it's the government run option that has all the problems.

But all of that aside, the very concept of Universal Healthcare is sophomoric at best. The notion of everyone getting free health care, should raise red flags amongst understanding grown adults. So when considering government run health care, it's best to remember the axiom, "If it sounds too good to be true, that's because it is."

What you should be asking instead, is how many British are coming to America for their healthcare vs. how many Americans are going to Britain for their healthcare.

Posted by: J at August 13, 2009 8:12 PM

Rep. Jackson Lee: I Was Framed

Lies, damn lies...and really, really stupid lies.

Posted by: SK at August 13, 2009 8:16 PM

REVEALED: SECRET OBAMA-PhARMA DEAL MEMO BOTH PARTIES HAVE DENIED FOR WEEK

Gibbys spent a good chunk of today's presser lying about this, by the way. Chuck Todd kept asking if the White House had made specific pledges to PhARMA, and Gibbs kept saying something like "We've only pledged to look for further savings." (Something like that -- don't quote me.)

How is promising not to seek savings in the bulk of the federal drug budget "looking for further savings"?

Caught on memo: The specific pledges the White House denies.

And a sell-out, of course, for political support, because the White House specifically promises to not seek "savings" in huge categories.

Posted by: SK at August 13, 2009 8:20 PM

If conservatives see it as an issue of freedom, they shouldn't bring up the spectre of death, or use emotional imagery to make people react. You might also want to make it clear why it doesn't bother you that you are a slave to your local fire and police departments, a slave to your planning board and military, but a public health system would make you a slave. How do you draw your line?

Dave, you mistake a devil's advocate for some imaginary caricature.

People pay for things with money. Money is made by making things. You make something and you trade it for money.

What do you make Dave?

Posted by: Brandon at August 13, 2009 8:20 PM

J you're reasonable and I agree we can't just make free healthcare. My beef is with the joker face, the threat that obamacare will make you die younger and what seems to be the very foundation of politics: lies and the belief in them.

Posted by: Brandon at August 13, 2009 8:26 PM

If conservatives see it as an issue of freedom, they shouldn't bring up the spectre of death, or use emotional imagery to make people react.

Why not?

Certainly the left has used emotional imagery to their advantage on multiple issues, so I don't see why their opponents shouldn't have access to the same kind of arsenal.

Furthermore, some of the bizarre Orwellian provisions in the bill itself mandating End of Life counseling sessions, like might be depicted in some kind of 70's Sci Fi dystopia, certainly brings up the spectre of death all on its own.

You might also want to make it clear why it doesn't bother you that you are a slave to your local fire and police departments, a slave to your planning board and military, but a public health system would make you a slave.

Fires, crimes, and wars are infrequent occurrences, as opposed to the ongoing needs of maintaining the health of the human body. Military, Police, and Fire are emergency services that are called upon when needed. If your argument is that a government run health care system should be run as these entities are, then you should relax content with the knowledge that it already is. It is already against federal law to deny emergency health care to anyone. So again, no universal healthcare plan is necessary.

The planning board is a separate issue entirely that would require paragraphs upon paragraphs, but the short of it is, is that it could easily be argued that many planning boards do in fact decrease liberty, and increase tyranny.

Posted by: J at August 13, 2009 8:52 PM

My beef is with the joker face

Why? The left has equally used this very same image against their opponents:

http://americasfuture.org/conventionalfolly/2009/08/03/the-department-of-double-standards/

the threat that obamacare will make you die younger

Having read the bill itself, I can tell you that the bill indicates this would be the likely outcome. After all, it was written by bureaucrats, as opposed to physicians.

Posted by: J at August 13, 2009 8:57 PM

Posted by: InformedCitizen at August 13, 2009 8:57 PM

Uh oh, comrades. Shades of the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact. The Party line just lurched, and we need to feather our anti-pharma propaganda, because this doesn't fit that narrative: pharmaceutical industry is financing TV ads ...backing ObamaCare. /Commie

The new group, funded largely by the pharmaceutical industry, is called Americans for Stable Quality Care. It includes some odd bedfellows: the American Medical Association, FamiliesUSA, the Federation of American Hospitals, PhRMA and SEIU, the service employees’ union.

The decision of labor and progressive groups to join with industry groups could draw new heat about the president's package from the left.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at August 13, 2009 9:04 PM

Why not?

Certainly the left has used emotional imagery to their advantage on multiple issues, so I don't see why their opponents shouldn't have access to the same kind of arsenal.

Because what is marketable is not necessarily what is right. Shouldn't the corruption of the party be replaced by the honor of the individual at a blog? Isn't this why the anonymous poster has no respect?

It is already against federal law to deny emergency health care to anyone.

do you agree with this? If you so you are drawing a line above zero. If so, what moral or practical reason do you give for not just drawing the line at zero, if they don't have the insurance or cash just let them die?

Posted by: Brandon at August 13, 2009 9:13 PM

Brandon, I don't know why you and others of your political ilk are having such a hard time with the scary death meeting stuff.

It's not complex at all. Obama has been VERY upfront that:

1. Costs have to come down so as to provide care to 47 million currently uninsured people without the overall cost going up

2. A gigantic proportion of total medicare spending is spent during the last six months of life

3. Obama feels one solution would be for old people to suck it up and pop pain pills instead of getting "that operation"

4. The bill DOES include a MANDATORY every-five-year meeting for old people to discussion end of life issues

Mash that all together, and people are scared shitless that, although the bill doesn't expressly say it's Logan's Run time, that over time, as bureucrats, lawyers, and courts work through it all, it will end up being an immoral, disgusting situation. And they don't want it. Even if Obama doesn't want to directly kill old people right now.

How complicated is that, really?

Posted by: mega at August 13, 2009 9:15 PM

Why? The left has equally used this very same image against their opponents

Because images are used to manipulate by using peoples emotions. Present an Image and a word repeatedly to the right audience and you can persuade them to think what you want them to think, without having to rely on the lazy people to think through the logic. This is why companies spend so much money on images; propaganda works.

Sure, companies and governments, executives and politicians are all corrupt. I expect them to manipulate with images and campaign songs and scary tv adds, even extortion, bribes and threats; they're scumbags after all.

I hold the people in my daily life to a higher standard. I expect them to have some degree of honor. I expect the most out of myself and my wife. If my friends or even my family tried to make me think or do something by using me emotionally, I would be very upset with them - I might even have to cut my ties with them.

I don't know where people on the internet stand. There is some semblance of community, of individual honor, of respect. At the same time there is a lot less respect than in real life. People open their anger valve up a bit more than in real life. They hardly take the time to listen, and the constant copy and paste makes a whole lot of people look like lemmings, just repeating the word and the image.

I'm not an economist, a sociologist, a doctor, a historian or a partisan, so I don't believe I actually know the answer. What it looks like to me though, is two corrupt political parties that have a never ending supply of drones, lemmings and rabid dogs, fighting each other for a trophy rather than for the good. If they were really fighting for the good, they could put away the propaganda and cut a deal.


Posted by: Brandon at August 13, 2009 9:51 PM

Posted by: BURNING HOT at August 13, 2009 10:11 PM

Wow... you seriously believe that conservatives (rights) subscribe to group-think?

I... uh... geez... You have just defined "clueless."

Posted by: Anonymous at August 13, 2009 10:14 PM

Posted by: BURNING HOT at August 13, 2009 10:18 PM

Posted by: BURNING HOT at August 13, 2009 10:26 PM

Section 1233 of Obama's Health Care Bill... Killing Off The Old Folks?

There are many problems with President Obama’s healthcare bill: the exorbitant cost, bureaucrats making medical decisions, big brother’s infamous inefficiency, and quality-of-care concerns to name just a few. But by far the scariest aspect of Obamacare is Section 1233 of the bill. In the words of House Minority Leader John Boehner and Republican Representative Thaddeus McCotter, Section 1233 “may start us down a treacherous path toward government-encouraged euthanasia.”

Posted by: SK at August 13, 2009 10:40 PM

“I’m From the Government and I’m Here to Help.”

Dateline: April 30th, 2016

Freddy the Fly on the Wall remembers this scene well and, amazingly, was able to type it all out.

Mrs. Jane Average, age 84, was sitting alone with her cat, Boots, in her darkened living room on a pretty spring day in April, 2016. For the past few years, Jane had found that bright lights hurt her aged, weary eyes.

The doorbell rang. She slowly got to her aching feet and made her way toward the door and opened it to find her smiling, young, new physician, Dr. Leon Jones, on her doorstep.

“Hello, Jane! How are you?”

She had never liked him ever since she had been forced into Obamacare after Metlife had raised her private insurance rates and thereby made government insurance mandatory.

However, being a refined lady to the end, she feigned pleasantry and said, ”Dr. Jones! This is a surprise! I didn’t know you were making house calls now.”

“Well, Jane, my office left a number of messages on your machine but you never called back. There are some things I have to talk to you about.”

“Well, Doctor, you know I usually can’t get to the phone on time and I find it difficult seeing the numbers so I don’t make many calls. But, do come in. I can’t imagine what’s so important that you had to come all the way over here, but come in!”

She tottered over to her favorite chair and gingerly sat down. “Please sit. Ever since my last, umm, problem, which you said wasn’t all that bad, I always seem tired. Sit.”

“Jane, that’s really what I wanted to talk to you about.”

“Oh, so you think I really should have the surgery?”

“No, no, no. I wouldn’t want to put you through all the pain and discomfort of another surgery. In fact, just the opposite.”

“I’m confused, Doctor, why are you here?”

“Umm, Jane, well you do know about the provision in the 2009 Health Care Law . . .”

“I know, I know, you explained all that in the chat we had just last year. I made my will and I have my living will and proxies and all those things you insisted I get. You said we wouldn’t have to talk about all that stuff for another 5 years.”

“No, Jane, I was referring to the provision, they call it, I think it’s in section 1233, the part that deals with what they call “Advance Care Planning Consultation. " . . .

(Read the rest at http://genelalor.com)

Posted by: Berlet98 at August 13, 2009 11:50 PM

Posted by: Avi Green at August 14, 2009 1:46 AM

You might also want to make it clear why it doesn't bother you that you are a slave to your local fire and police departments, a slave to your planning board and military, but a public health system would make you a slave. How do you draw your line?

Conservatives believe the government should be a place of last resort for a small set of unique functions that cannot or should not be handled by free enterprise or charitable institutions. We recognize that making The Government the be-all and end-all of all societal functions crushes freedom and is financially unsustainable. And we have proof from around the world and throughout history that we are absolutely right on this point.

Posted by: V the K at August 14, 2009 5:16 AM

BTW, those planning boards you so worship, Brandeen, are a huge impetus behind the suburban sprawl you also claim to despise.

Posted by: V the K at August 14, 2009 5:17 AM

I spoke with a foaming-at-the-mouth, self-proclaimed uber-liberal democrat this early this morning in relation to the healthcare protests. He believes that all of the protesters are Republicans who were planted there, told what to say, where to sit, what questions to ask, and via the internet, told what to write on signs and such.

I suggested the idea that the protests were genuinely made upof people who have real questions about the proposals in HR 3200, and he became infuriated that I even consider that it was anything other than the Vast, Right-Wing Conspiracy acting as obstructionists simply to oppose the President and the "other side". He stated simply that those deep-south, bible-thumpin', NRA people are so upset that they are out of power, that they're acting like babies just for the sake of being tempermental, and that he f*cking hates all Republicans so much, he'd like to line them all up and shoot them.

Oh, and to top it all off- he's "seen copies of the documents sent out by the GOP...", "...in coordination with the Right-Wing talk radio hosts like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity..." giving the uneducated slobs "their instructions on where to sit, how to act, and what signs to write up."(After all, he has inside information from a LOBBYIST in Washington, D.C.) He was practically spitting mad about all this, and again, would not even CONSIDER the fact that he could be incorrect in any of his assumptions. He told me I had really struck a nerve when I defended "those Republican f*ckers", and that we would just have to "agree to disagree". (And he knows that I am not a Republican, BTW.)The kicker was when I asked him if he had actually read through the details of the bill.

"Yep. All one-thousand pages..."
"Actually, it's one-thousand seventeen pages. I have a copy of it as well."
"Well whatever. That's the thing- I'm twenty years older than you, so I have twenty more years experience in politics. I KNOW what's going on."


And you wonder why we can't have a rational discussion about this with some people. If there's others that feel the same way- it's no wonder after all. Like any other argument- there is no discussion.

Posted by: Murff at August 14, 2009 5:32 AM

Wow... you seriously believe that conservatives (rights) subscribe to group-think?

there are idiots all across the political spectrum.

If you can't see your own idiots, you're blind as a bat.

If you want to see the conservative group think, listen to Rush or and the news. When your leaders want you to think something, they will all go on the sunday news programs, fox will repeat it, Rush will repeat it, and then bam, it's on every conservative blog, and all the conservatives are thinking what their leaders want them to.

Posted by: Brandon at August 14, 2009 11:01 AM

BTW, those planning boards you so worship, Brandeen, are a huge impetus behind the suburban sprawl you also claim to despise.

I am always amazed at how people at the moonbattery can read minds.

Posted by: Brandon at August 14, 2009 11:03 AM

worship

btw, that's an example of the language of hyperbole I was talking about earlier. Do you think it's honest to make gross exaggerations all the time?

Posted by: Brandon at August 14, 2009 11:10 AM

People pay for things with money. Money is made by making things. You make something and you trade it for money.
Posted by: Brandon at August 13, 2009 8:20 PM

True dip shit liberal fashion on dodging the answer, Brandy. Government, in case you didn't realize, government is not for profit. You really are a dumbass.

People pay for things with money. Money is made by making things. You make something and you trade it for money.

"What do you make Dave?"

I'm a partner in a restaurant LLC you jackass.

Apple to oranges, Brandy. We are are talking about health care stoooooooooooopid. What want to do libtard? Print more money? Just admit that you are clueless. Some has to pay for this socialist program.

Posted by: Dave at August 14, 2009 11:12 AM

Did I do that? LOL!

Posted by: Dave at August 14, 2009 11:16 AM

maybe if I speak your language, you'll be able to comprehend what I'm saying, buttwipe.

First I haven't even said that I want government insurance, you pansy. I've stated on this website before that I am against it, dickwad.

Second, how stupid are you, penis breath? The people will pay for health care, as they do now and as they always will.

Posted by: Brandon at August 14, 2009 11:34 AM



I'd like some liberal to explain how we will not inevitably have shortages and rationing (leading, necessarily, to premature deaths), when:

* we already have a shortages of doctors,

* we make working conditions for doctors even more intolerable by ratcheting up the governmental intrusion, causing doctors to leave the profession in droves (and discouraging young people from becoming doctors) and then

* we dump, by Obama's estimate, 56 MILLION new patients into the system?


Sounds like a recipe for disaster. Where are we going to get the huge number of doctors and nurses that will be needed to keep the system running at some semblance of its current capacity?


Posted by: ent at August 14, 2009 12:51 PM

maybe if I speak your language, you'll be able to comprehend what I'm saying, buttwipe.

First I haven't even said that I want government insurance, you pansy. I've stated on this website before that I am against it, dickwad.

Second, how stupid are you, penis breath? The people will pay for health care, as they do now and as they always will.

Posted by: Brandon at August 14, 2009 11:34 AM

BWAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Are you getting fustrated with me Brandy?
So you're saying more taxation to pay for health care for LOOOOOOOOOSSERS like you.

You are a socialist pig, Brandy. You just proved yourself.

BTW.....you're reply takes me back to the grade school days. Thanks for the laugh!

BTW, All those names you called me(LOL) did you learn that from blowing your own father?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!! Liar Liar liberal asshole on fire!!!!

Posted by: Dave at August 14, 2009 2:02 PM

good one dave.

funny how so many people here insist that I believe things that I don't. It seems they all think that anyone who doesn't think exactly what they think is a liberal, and that liberals only think in one way.

Posted by: Brandon at August 14, 2009 3:47 PM

Don't back track now Brandy!

You sleep with dogs that have fleas then you're bound to get them. All I have to do is read your posts and what you defend.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it IS A FUCKING DUCK!

Getting the picture I'm painting here?

Posted by: Dave at August 14, 2009 4:05 PM

Well dave you don't get it. I don't defend much when I go on this site, I mostly attack hipocracy, misrepresentation, exageration and logical flaws. Same thing I do on liberal sites, and when I visit liberal sites they say the same damn things about me as you do, except they think I'm a conservative.

Imagine that.

As I see it, the liberal idiots and the conservative idiots are the same breed of idiot, the only difference is their parents told them a different story when they were children.

Your just a reactionary who sees me as target because my thoughts are not a carbon copy of Rush Limbaugh's. If you would like some proof of why you're just a reactionary fool who has no clue about what he's talking about, take a look at one of my actual posts on the subject:

Posted by: Brandon at July 2, 2009 7:57 AM

If the country gets some kind of government insurance program, and at the same time there are still private insurance companies it is likely to cause problems. It is proposed to make insurance affordable, and that means the government will have to undercut the cost of private insurance companies. In order to keep on par with the government rate, private insurance companies are going to have to outsource and get their plans manufactured in China or some third world country.

Also, when you get politicians running things, they often make decisions for political reasons, not for smart business reasons (i.e. the above video).

You're such a damn fool you think I support socialism and the public option, and your only evidence is that I am here playing the devil's advocate. You've ascribed a whole set of values and beliefs on me just because I am skeptical of the things people write and try to convince me of. The liberals do the exact same thing.

I am trying to find the truth. You are trying to win a pissing contest.

And since you are probably unable to understand it on your own, when I said that private insurance companies would have to outsource their plans to China, that was an analogy used to describe how the insurance companies would compete with the government by making a cheaper product.

Posted by: Brandon at August 14, 2009 5:16 PM

OK Brandon I see your point. Well done.

Posted by: Dave at August 14, 2009 5:32 PM

I will be more careful when reading your posts in the future I will question insterad of the pissing matches with you.

Posted by: Dave at August 14, 2009 5:35 PM

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