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June 19, 2009

Bill Ayers Influence on Obama Goes Back to Grade School

To become Lord of the Moonbats, you have to get off to an early start. The offspring of a hippy and an African socialist, Obama was steeped in moonbattery from his conception. Now we learn that his connection with unrepentant communist terrorist Bill Ayers goes back to age 11:

While Obama's membership as an adult in the controversial Trinity United Church of Christ has received widespread media attention, almost nothing has been reported about his Sunday school attendance at First Unitarian, a far-left activist church that may have helped provide the president's initial political education.
First Unitarian, a member of the Unitarian Universalist denomination, served as a sanctuary for draft dodgers and was strongly tied to the Students for a Democratic Society, or SDS, during the time Weatherman radical Bill Ayers was a leader in that organization. The Weathermen was an offshoot of the SDS.

As you'll recall, Obama declared that Ayers' political mentorship wasn't relevant, since Ayers committed his terrorist acts when BHO was a child, before realizing that he could inflict more damage on the country by subverting the education establishment — and by nurturing the political career of a certain radical leftist who is currently steering us toward economic ruin. But even as a little boy, the Moonbat Messiah's worldview was molded by Ayers and his ilk.

ayers obama
Compliments of Aaron S.

On a tip from The MaryHunter.

Posted by Van Helsing at June 19, 2009 9:13 AM

Comments

Hitler was a Catholic. OMFG the Pope is a Nazi

Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2009 9:20 AM

They had the chance to have BLOWN BILL AYERS to kingdomcome but blew it big time becuase of all the lienancy of the late 60s early 70s

Posted by: SPURWING PLOVER at June 19, 2009 9:54 AM

Hitler was not Ctaholic dimbulb. A person can call themself the Pope but that doesn't make it the truth. Now go play with your kostard friends and let the adults talk.

Posted by: Farmer Ted at June 19, 2009 9:55 AM

Hitler was Catholic?

OMG what an effin MORON!

The THIRD Reich ring a bell tard?

1st Reich: Pre Christian Teutonic tribal society

2nd Reich: the Holy Roman Empire

3rd Reich: post-CHRISTIAN tribal Teutonic era

Dumabss.

Posted by: Worst of Gallstone at June 19, 2009 10:12 AM

Hitler was born into a Catholic family, but he degenerated into being a secular collectivist.

Obama seems to be staying a little closer to the radical roots he was born into, but he's also been schooled in normalcy by his grandmother. It's a dangerous combo because he's clearly capable of appearing normal to gullible people while being a far-leftist in his actions.

Posted by: forest at June 19, 2009 10:15 AM

"let the 'adults' talk?"

LOL

“I am now, as before, a Catholic and will always remain so.” Adolph Hitler

Compared with:

1) Obama attended Sunday School at First Unitarian
2) First Unitarian was sympathetic to Students for a Democratic Society
3) Some members of the SDS formed The Weathermen.
4) Bill Ayers was a member of the Weathermen
5) Therefore Obama is a puppet of Bill Ayers

I mean we all like a good conspiracy theory, but you're better off worrying about the 'missing' birth certificate.


Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2009 10:22 AM

OMG what a DIPSHIT!

When did you fabricate that quote, after reading Ron Paul's book or the Communist Manifesto?

Posted by: Worst of Gallstone at June 19, 2009 10:24 AM

"1st Reich: Pre Christian Teutonic tribal society
2nd Reich: the Holy Roman Empire
3rd Reich: post-CHRISTIAN tribal Teutonic era
Dumabss."

Nah, close but no cigar
1st Reich - Holy Roman Empire
2nd Reich - German Monarchy 1871-1918
3rd Reich - Christian Nazi

Hitler was born a Catholic, went to Lambach Catholic Benedictine monastery school (where the Swastika is carved into the stones)

How 'good' a Catholic he was is another matter. But there is far more evidence of his Christianity than there is for Obama's

Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2009 10:36 AM

welcome to collectivist hell.

in canada we have lived in an economists wet dream for long enough to see that the money goes of into a sink hole of tax dollars that gets funneled into whatever program suits the bureaucrats needs of the day, while we all busy ourselves trying pay bills, stay healthy and generally stave off the abject boredom of being alive in a modern feudal state.

in the us there has been this optimism that canadians lack.....but i sense this feeling fading fast as more americans take on a collectivist stance.

Posted by: alistair at June 19, 2009 10:36 AM

That's funny, a while back Ghost of Wellstone was trying to link Hitler with Catholics. Odd how an "anonymous" troll would do this too. Coincidence?

Posted by: Kevin R at June 19, 2009 10:42 AM

"trying to link Hitler with Catholics?"

There is no need to 'try'. It's a matter of historical record.

Hitler was a Catholic, by birth, education, and was confirmed into the Church. He never renounced his membership nor was he excommunicated.

No Nazi, other than Josef Goebbels (for marrying a Protestant) was excommunicated from the Catholic Church.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2009 10:55 AM

As I said anon you can call yourself wHatever you like Catholic,Jew ,Mormon,etc. If you don't follow the teachings of your chosen religion then you are only lying to yourself. By the I want to be Luke Skywalker and fly an X-wing fighter. Doesn't mean it's going to happen.

Posted by: Farmer Ted at June 19, 2009 10:59 AM

Hitler was only interested in the Catholic and Protestant churches insofar as he could co-opt them for his own power or at least keep them out of his way. Regardless of any statements he made to the contrary (he also described himself as a "complete pagan"), he was secular-statist, with a strange underlying pagan mysticism drawing on many sources - sorta like "new age" people now. The State was Hitler's priority, and he treated Christian churches as an unfortunate counter-poise to his power.

Atheists and various leftists have been trying to paint Hitler as a Christian and a "right-winger" for years in order to further their own agendas, but it's just nonsense. He was a collectivist-statist (ie leftist) and a secularist with some strange paganesque conglomerate political-religious ideas.

With the exception of his militarism, Hitler has much in common with today's left - including the Jew hatin'.

Posted by: forest at June 19, 2009 11:02 AM

Anonymous, whatever your point is, it's very tiresome. I only read the good posts on here. Who's got time for you?

Posted by: Karin at June 19, 2009 11:16 AM

Hey Anonymous troll idiot:

Hitler says he was a Catholic, eh?

We'll Obama also said he was a Christian (albeit after acknowledging his Muslim heritage and being quickly corrected by his adoring Georgie Boy Snopholopogos).

Who's the bigger liar?

Obama was a Muslim by birth, in that Islam was the only relegion either parent practiced -- he was born to a black muslim daddy and atheist white hippie mommmie in Kenya. Hitler, like Obama, was close to his mother, but had a troubled relationship with his father. Obama travelled as a Muslim in Asia and attended a Muslim school in Indonesia.

Hitler was raised by Roman Catholic parents, but after he left home, he never attended Mass or received the sacraments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler#Religious_beliefs. Check the Catechism, you can't be a "true Catholic" and fail to receive the sacraments. Moreover, in public, Hitler often praised Christian heritage, German Christian culture, and professed a belief in an Aryan Jesus Christ, a Jesus who fought against the Jews. Id. Yea, that's some really mainline biblically based Catholic and Christian thought, since Jesus was also a Jew.

HERE IS PROOF HITLER AND NAZIS IN FACT HAVE THE SAME RADICAL SOCIALIST IDEOLOGY WITH RESPECT TO CHRISTIANITY AS TODAY'S PROGRESSIVES/LEFTISTS IN AMERICA:

Hitler had a general plan, even before the rise of the Nazis to power, to destroy Christianity within the Reich.[285][286][287] The leader of the Hitler Youth stated "the destruction of Christianity was explicitly recognized as a purpose of the National Socialist movement" from the start, but "considerations of expedience made it impossible" publicly to express this extreme position. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler#Religious_beliefs

You, Anonymous, are a true moron, and, like most trolls, you are devoid of proof to back your smears. Sayin you are something you're obviously not (e.g., Obama is going to cut your taxes) simply doesn't make it so, just like if I were to say you were intelligent.

Posted by: GhostofJournalism at June 19, 2009 11:34 AM

Hitler was a Catholic, by birth, education, and was confirmed into the Church. He never renounced his membership nor was he excommunicated.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 19, 2009 10:55 AM

Wow, really? That's pretty damning stuff, anon. What do you think it means?

Posted by: Kevin R at June 19, 2009 11:34 AM

Et tu, Ghost of Wellstone? Et tu?

Posted by: Ghost of America at June 19, 2009 11:39 AM

Even more proof that Hitler was more like our country's current statist leadership than any semblance of a Christian:

Hitler expressed admiration for the Muslim military tradition and directed Himmler to initiate Muslim SS Divisions as a matter of policy.[298] According to one confidant, Hitler stated in private, "The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness ..."[299]

Hitler once stated, "We do not want any other god than Germany itself. It is essential to have fanatical faith and hope and love in and for Germany."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler#Religious_beliefs

Posted by: GhostofJournalism at June 19, 2009 11:39 AM

But even as a little boy, the Moonbat Messiah's worldview was molded by Ayers and his ilk.

Exactly. And that is the statement which set our resident troll to hijack the thread and throw it off on a tangent.

Posted by: Kevin R at June 19, 2009 11:57 AM

Who cares what Hitler said about his "faith"? The salient point is that the current resident of the white house was primarily influenced during his formative years by a bigamist father who wrote Marxist propaganda promoting revolution in Africa and a home grown Marxist terrorist promoting revolution in the US, and muslims. He then chose to surround himself with communists in college, attended a racist, anti-American church with his family as an adult, and now claims to be a centrist, pro-American, Christian. What a laugh

Posted by: JustAl at June 19, 2009 12:07 PM

To any liberal fools who still seriously think that Hitler had any attachment to the Catholic Church by the time he was Fuhrer, I highly recommend you read "The Persecution of the Catholic Church in the Third Reich (1942)" before you make even bigger asses of yourselves. It is over 500 pages of documentation that the Nazis, with Hitler leading the charge, conspired to incrementally replace the Catholic Church with their religion, i.e., Nazism. And you really have to ask yourself why Hitler, if he was such a good Catholic, would have plotted to storm the Vatican and kidnap the Pope. The only sense in which he was Catholic was that he had the mark on his soul from Baptism, something that even full blown apostasy cannot erase.

Posted by: Judith M. at June 19, 2009 12:17 PM

Obama was a Muslim by birth, in that Islam was the only relegion either parent practiced -- he was born to a black muslim daddy and atheist white hippie mommmie
Such a marriage is haraam and na'jaiz, i.e. illegal under Islamic Law. The person (Obama's father) and the offspring (Obama) are both kafir i.e. apostate, so - no, he isn't Muslim by birth.

Anonymous, whatever your point is, it's very tiresome.
Yeah, thinking is hard work. The point is that you all claim that being brought up in a religion from birth, including being educated full time in a monastery, does not mean much about the actions of the person when adult, and that there is little correlation between the teachings of the religion and that person's actions.

Yet a tenuous connection between a church in Hawaii, which Obama may have attended a few times for Sunday school and another organisation several degrees of separation away is enough to prove Obama is a puppet of Ayers. Laughable even ignoring the lack of dogma in the Unitarian movement.

Or for those who claim Obama is a Muslim because 'he attended a Madrassa' or 'his father was a muslim' (you need to get your conspiracy theories straight) perhaps you see the parallels?

I apologise to the smarter people here who had already got it, but apparently this needed to be spelled out in short words.

The poster formerly known as Anonymous

Posted by: Lunapipistrellus at June 19, 2009 12:31 PM

Hitler got kicked out of the monastery school for smoking, luna, and I think he only went there for a year so it is a stretch to say he went there "full time". But I agree that Obama is in no way a practicing a Muslim, however, he does seem to have more sympathy towards Muslims than mainline Christianity. Does that mean he's secretly praying to Allah? I seriously doubt it. I think it's just a manifestation of his moonbatty tendency to believe that the enemy of my enemy (Christianity) is my friend. And please don't tell me he's a Christian, because he spent most of adult life going to a church where the name Jesus was rarely used, except in a profane way.

Posted by: Judith M. at June 19, 2009 12:55 PM

Hopey McChange WORKED with Ayres. He CONSULTED Ayres on political matters. He planned his political career in Ayres' home.

Nope, no connection there. (SPIT!)

According to islam, a child is BORN into the muslim faith if the FATHER IS MUSLIM. Hopey McChange was REGISTERED in school as MUSLIM. If he were to announce that he was NOT a muslim, he would be the target of a fatwa.

By the way, a CONSPIRACY has to have AT LEAST TWO conspirators. You cannot "conspire" by yourself. So WHO is supposed to be "conspiring" with Hopey McChange about his religion?

Posted by: KHarn at June 19, 2009 1:01 PM

The guilt by loose association game simply does not work.

also, the weak logic is flawed. Ayers would have to have influence over unitarian universalists for this to even begin to make any sense what so ever.

It's hilarious that people actually believe this kind of crap. I guess that's how the far right engages in patriotism - by slandering their opposition.

Posted by: Brandon at June 19, 2009 1:03 PM

It's not flawed if one can demonstrate the influence of Saul Alinsky and Bill Ayers in Obama's tactics and policies. And numerous examples of Obama following the 'Rules for Radicals' playbook have already been cite in this forum and elsewhere.

Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at June 19, 2009 1:06 PM

Disagree, Brandy. You ARE known by the company you keep. I don't hang out with lowlifes, drug addicts and creeps because I want to be considered an upstanding member of the community. I may want to run for office.

Posted by: Karin at June 19, 2009 1:09 PM

Hitler was a Catholic, by birth, education, and was confirmed into the Church. He never renounced his membership nor was he excommunicated.

The birth, education, and confirmation all happened well before Hitler began public life. His public utterances in support of religion and Catholicism in particular stand in stark contrast to his private ones.

Your complaint that Hitler was not excommunicated from the Catholic Church and that Goebbels was for "marrying a Protestant" show that you know little about formal vs. informal excommunication and under what circumstances a formal excommunication is made.

Informal excommunication is incurred by any Catholic who commits serious sin and does not reconcile Himself to God and the Church. There is no doubt that Hitler incurred informal excommunication.

The Church only formally excommunicates someone (i.e. issues a decree of excommunication) if that person's actions are seen to pose a threat to regular church-going Catholics about what is and isn't Catholic teaching. With Hitler, there was no confusion. He excommunicated himself by his actions, and nobody but anti-religious and/or anti-Catholic loons would ever believe that Hitler was a faithful Catholic adhering to the teachings of the Church.

As for Goebbels, he did not incur automatic excommunication for marrying a Protestant, as is hysterically claimed in numerous places. While it is true that the woman Goebbels married was a Protestant, neither he nor any Catholic incurred or would incur any type of excommunication by marrying a Protestant. What he did incur automatic excommunication for was marrying a divorced woman. Following Christ's words that a man (or woman) who divorces their spouse and marries another is guilty of adultery, in the eyes of the Church she was still married. Had she gotten her first marriage annulled, the Church would not have objected; however, she did not even try, and Goebbels plea to his local bishop to "waive" any objection by the Church was denied. However, Goebbels was never formally excommunicated, and there exists no claim of a formal decree of excommunication against him.

Perhaps it would be a good thing for you to rely on actual Church documents on matters of Church teaching and practice instead of lazily relying on Christopher Hitchens and taking his word for it.

Posted by: GeronimoRumplestiltskin at June 19, 2009 1:10 PM

yeah but the OP is talking about the influence on Obama when he was 11.

Maybe Obama is using the 'Rules for Radicals' playbook but again that's a loose association. The 'Rules for Radicals' looks like it was plagiarized from Sun Tzu.

Posted by: Brandon at June 19, 2009 1:14 PM

According to islam, a child is BORN into the muslim faith if the FATHER IS MUSLIM. Hopey McChange was REGISTERED in school as MUSLIM. If he were to announce that he was NOT a muslim, he would be the target of a fatwa.
Sorry, your knowledge of Islam and Sharia law is superficial.

A Muslima woman is not permitted to marry a non-Muslim man - she would be under the authority of a non-Muslim.

A Muslim man is permitted to marry a practicing Jew or Christian ("People of the Books") and the children would be automatically considered Muslims by Islam, however as Farmer Ted points out, being called a Muslim by others does not make you a Muslim.

However it is haruum and na'jaiz to marry a woman who is not practicing her faith - she is a Mulhid or atheist. It doesn't matter whether she is a token Christian or openly atheist.

In that circumstance, which clearly applies to Anne Dunham and Obama, the marriage is invalid under Sharia Law, the father and the children are kafirs (infidels) and most definitely NOT Muslims.

Posted by: Lunapipistrellus at June 19, 2009 1:26 PM

You ARE known by the company you keep. I don't hang out with lowlifes, drug addicts and creeps because I want to be considered an upstanding member of the community.

Good point.

In Obama's case, he may also be known by his propensity to fire government watchdogs, spend insane amounts of money to enrich his cronies, behave like a complete hypocrite, bully and demonize those who disagree with him, smile and embrace communist despots while slapping longstanding allies in the face, and side with tyrants over oppressed people.

Posted by: Gregory of Yardale at June 19, 2009 2:06 PM

Nice rebut, Geronimo.

As for the topic of this thread, it is interesting that Obama belonged to a denomination that shielded groups to which Ayers belonged. I'd need more to believe there was any direct contact between the two, but it's seems likely that the seeds of radical thinking were being planted in little Barry's brain even at church as a child.

Posted by: Judith M. at June 19, 2009 2:40 PM

With regard to Goebbels, mea culpa. I should have said "was excommunicated for marrying a divorced protestant"

The Church only formally excommunicates someone (i.e. issues a decree of excommunication) if that person's actions are seen to pose a threat to regular church-going Catholics about what is and isn't Catholic teaching.
...
Perhaps it would be a good thing for you to rely on actual Church documents on matters of Church teaching

Certainly a good idea. Unfortunately they don't support your claim that the only gounds are that it must 'pose a threat to regular church going Catholics' by heretical teaching.

Procuring an abortion, for example, does not fit that criteria, yet is grounds for excommunication. Apparently killing a few million Jews isn't as bad as aborting a fetus.

Posted by: Lunapipistrellus at June 19, 2009 3:09 PM

Yeah, and Marx was born a Jew, Stalin was a Russian Orthodox seminarian, Obama was a doper, his pal Ayers is a terrorist, his pastor Wright is a nutjob, and you're probably a devout global warmist. BFD.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at June 19, 2009 4:01 PM

Actually, Luna, Hitler would have experienced excommunication latae setentiae way before the Final Solution, because his racial theories were completely incompatible with Church teachings, and the Church made that quite clear. His refusal to follow the Church's teachings on this and other matters essentially made him apostate.

Posted by: Judith M. at June 19, 2009 4:08 PM

And while we're at it, let's also point out that the original Nazis (probably including Hitler) were largely fags. To curry favor with the Wehrmacht, who insisted he do so, Hitler swooped down on an SA retreat in Munich where Roehm and his boyfriends were all cavorting, San Francisco-style.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at June 19, 2009 4:09 PM

Lunapipistrellus:

That murder is a serious case of wrongdoing is not a Church teaching that is under dispute by any sane person.

That abortion is a serious case of wrongdoing is a Church teaching that is in a great deal of dispute by many otherwise thoughtful people.

No sane person argues that the Holocaust was not evil. Hence, there is no clear teaching that is needed to be re-affirmed, and hence no reason for formal excommunication. However, plenty of sane people nevertheless see no evil in the murder of an unborn child. Here there is a there is clear message that is needed to be re-affirmed, and hence the formal (as well as automatic) excommunication.

Your attempts to connect the Catholic Church with the Nazis are rather pathetic, and supported by no serious, reputable historian.

Posted by: GeronimoRumplestiltskin at June 19, 2009 4:10 PM

You aren't kidding about the Third Reich and homosexuality, Jay. Before Roehm was killed, he pretty much had staffed the SA with the butchest, meanest, homosexuals he could find. And homosexuality in the German youth groups, like the Wandervogel, and later the Hitler Youth was rampant. The organizations were run by homosexuals, one of the leaders of the organization, Hans Blueher, wrote about the joys of man-boy love (and NAMBLA thought they were so progressive) and another leader, Edmund Heines,
was a convicted pederast, and murderer. Strangely (or not so strangely), Hitler didn't seem to have a problem with these men working with Nazi youth.

Posted by: Judith M. at June 19, 2009 4:45 PM

Your attempts to connect the Catholic Church 11 year old Obama with the Nazis Bill Ayers and the Weathermen are rather pathetic, and supported by no serious, reputable historian
sensible person.

Now you're getting it!

Posted by: Lunapipistrellus at June 19, 2009 4:47 PM

Lunapipistrellus:

I wrote nothing whatsoever about Obama and Bill Ayers; I merely refuted your foolish assertions about the Catholic Church in regards to the Nazis.

But hey, anything to deflect attention from the fact that your slander against the Church has no merit, huh?

Posted by: GeronimoRumplestiltskin at June 19, 2009 5:01 PM

I wrote nothing whatsoever about Obama and Bill Ayers; I merely refuted your foolish assertions about the Catholic Church in regards to the Nazis.

But hey, anything to deflect attention from the fact that your slander against the Church has no merit, huh?

Good grief.

My purpose by invoking the far more evidential Catholic/Nazi link, which you are all anxious to jump in and defend, is to show the absurdity of the premise of this thread.

Do try to keep up.

Posted by: Lunapipistrellus at June 19, 2009 5:24 PM

Nice. You think the evidence is lacking to tie Obama to Ayers in any meaningful way when he was 11. I do, too. But to prove your point you spread pernicious libels about the Catholic Church, and contrary to your claims, there is NOT more evidence for a link between Catholicism and Nazism, and anyone who would have made that claim during the Nazi era or for at least a decade later would have been locked up in an asylum for being out of touch with reality. The only "evidence" linking the Church with the Nazis is "The Deputy" which was a lie from start to finish, written by an anti-Catholic, and propagated by Communists. So I suppose it would make sense that you think that's "evidence," just as any good little Communist would.

Posted by: Judith M. at June 19, 2009 5:31 PM

Obama met Ayers at Columbia, during which time Obama was 20-24 years old. Not 11.

Judith, have you seen Triumph of the Will? It's the famous Leni Riefenstahl movie, but it's practically homosexual soft porn. Scene after scene of bare-chested blond boys wrestling and bathing and exercising. Very overt, and very creepy.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at June 19, 2009 5:43 PM

Lunapipistrellus, aka "Dago Moonbat" - we wondered what happened to you! You haven't checked in for a while.

What's with this preoccupation with Hitler and Christianity that you have? You have been out here with the same tired arguments time after time, and you still just don't "get it".

Hitler was born into a Catholic family, but rejected it fairly early, as do a lot of "angry young men" that consider themselves waaay too smart for. "all that superstitious religious nonsense".

He fully embraced "German" paganism, tribalism, and nihilism, and this is clearly reflected in the Nazi doctrine. National Socialism (and it's competitor, Communism) were both designed to subvert, displace and replace Christianity.

Hitler had to be careful, though - Germany at the time was primarily Catholic and Lutheran, and he had to pretend to be Christian for political gain, much like several other politicians I can think of.

Much is made of the Nazi belt buckles with "Gott mit uns" - but it's also well known that this was in reference to the golden-calf god of Nazi ideology, not the Christian God.

As Goebbels, Nazi Minister of Propaganda, noted:

"The Fuhrer is deeply religous, though completely anti-Christian. He views Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race... Both [Judaism and Christianity] have no point of contact to the animal element, and thus, in the end, they will be destroyed."

To quote the well-regarded W.L. Shirer in The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich:

"...under the leadership of Rosenberg, Bormann and Himmler, who were backed by Hitler, the Nazi regime intended eventually to destroy Christianity in Germany, if it could, and substitute the old paganism of the early tribal Germanic gods and the new paganism of the Nazi extremists. As Bormann, one of the men closest to Hitler, said publicly in 1941, 'National Socialism and Christianity are irreconcilable.'

What the Hitler government envisioned for Germany was clearly set out in a thirty-point program for the 'National Reich Church' drawn up during the war by Rosenberg, an outspoken pagan...


"The National Reich Church of Germany categorically claims the exclusive right and the exclusive power to control all churches within the borders of the Reich: it declares these to be national churches of the German Reich.

"The National Church is determined to exterminate irrevocably...the strange and foreign Christian faiths imported into Germany in the ill-omened year 800...

"The National Church has no scribes, pastors, chaplains or priests, but National Reich orators are to speak in them.

"The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and dissemination of the Bible in Germany...'"

"On the altars there must be nothing but 'Mein Kampf' (to the German nation and therefore to God the most sacred book) and to the left of the altar a sword.

"On the day of its foundation, the Christian Cross must be removed from all churches, cathedrals and chapels...and it must be superseded by the only unconquerable symbol, the swastika."

(The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, by William L. Shirer, p. 240 in some editions, p. 332 in others. Chapter headed "Triumph and Consolidation", subsection "The Persecution of the Christian Churches")


Oh, and there's more, Dago Moonbat (or "Moon bat" as you used to spell it)

About 15 miles north of the Biden mansion is the St. maximilian Kolbe Roman Catholic Church.

Do you know who "St Max" is? Your buddies the Nazis killed him (from the quick & dirty Wiki):

"Maximilian Kolbe (8 January 1894–14 August 1941), also known as Maksymilian or Massimiliano Maria Kolbe and "Apostle of Consecration to Mary," born as Rajmund Kolbe, was a Polish Conventual Franciscan friar who volunteered to die in place of a stranger in the Nazi concentration camp of Auschwitz in Poland.

He was canonized by the Catholic Church as Saint Maximilian Kolbe on 10 October 1982 by Pope John Paul II, and declared a martyr of charity. He is the patron saint of drug addicts, political prisoners, families, journalists, prisoners, amateur radio and the pro-life movement. Pope John Paul II declared him "The Patron Saint of Our Difficult Century".


Yeah, Hitler was a Christian. Get over yourself and get a clue, Lunapipistrellus, aka The Unknown Moonbat, aka Dago Moonbat, aka "Moon bat".

Posted by: TonyD95B at June 19, 2009 5:43 PM

Wow. Godwin right off the bad.

Good job! :D

Posted by: Impressive at June 19, 2009 6:00 PM

He gets it from his mommy.


Mercer island High School was the subject of an investigation by the House Un-American Activities Subcommittee when it was learned that the Communist Party, USA had infiltrated the school and several faculty members were Marxists.

In 1955, the chairman of the Mercer Island school board, John Stenhouse, testified that he had been a member of the Communist Party.

Two of Dunham's teachers, Jim Wichterman and Val Foubert, were active Marxists.

Dunham was a zealous atheist.

Posted by: scribbler at June 19, 2009 6:55 PM

Jay, I'm trying to get through Triumph of the Will, but so far I've only gotten through the first 10 minutes. I know what you mean about the blonde boys, though, because I've seen some of those scenes excerpted in history programs. The Nazis were really into the butch gay scene, and although they'd use feminine gays for sex, they had no respect for them. In fact, it was pretty common that feminine gays would be camp prisoners while butch homosexual SS were the guards! It's also interesting that for all the baloney about how gays were "persecuted" and hated by Hitler, he never mentions them once in Mein Kampf, and it's not like homosexuality was super rare in Germany even when Hitler was growing up.

Posted by: Judith M. at June 19, 2009 7:37 PM

Great apologetics, Tony. I may have to steal it for later usage! ;)

Posted by: Judith M. at June 19, 2009 7:43 PM

Far from being a 'libel' there is a clear link between Hitler and the Catholic church which has been acknowledged here. Hitler was born, raised and educated a Catholic. He claimed to be a Catholic and appealed to and used the church to achieve his goals. That link exist whether or not Hitler was a "True Catholic" or merely a nominal Catholic.

While some in the Church opposed him, to their credit - Faulhaber springs to mind, many were happy to go along for the ride (as long as Hitler was winning).

His Holiness Pope Pius XI and the President of the German Reich, moved by a common desire to consolidate and promote the friendly relations existing between the Holy See and the German Reich, wish to permanently regulate the relations between the Catholic Church and the state for the whole territory of the German Reich
Concordat between the Holy See and the German Reich, July 20, 1933

Archbishop Konrad Gröber of Freiburg was known as the “Brown Bishop” because he was such an enthusiastic supporter of the Nazis. In 1933, he became a “sponsoring member” of the SS. After the war, however, he claimed to have been such an opponent of the Nazis that they had planned to crucify him on the door for the Freiburg Cathedral.

Bishop Wilhlem Berning of Osnabrück sat with the Deutsche Christen Reichsbishop in the Prussian State Council from 1933 to 1945, a clear signal of support for the Nazi regime.

Cardinal Bertram also had some affinity for the Nazis. In 1933, for example, he refused to intervene on behalf of Jewish merchants who were the targets of Nazi boycotts, saying that they were a group “which has no very close bond with the church.”

Bishop Buchberger of Regensburg called Nazi racism directed at Jews “justified self-defense” in the face of “overly powerful Jewish capital.”

Bishop Hilfrich of Limburg said that they true Christian religion “made its way not from the Jews but in spite of them.”
In Pope Benedict XVI: A Biography of Joseph Ratzinger, John L. Allen Jr

"This is not merely a deportation of the Jews of Slovakia. You will not merely die of hunger and disease on account of the deportation. No. You will be killed. Young and old alike. Women and children alike. This is your Divine punishment for your having murdered Our Savior."
Karol Kmetko, Archbishop of Nitra

The endemic anti-semitism of both the Catholic and Lutheran churches undoubtedly contributed to Hitler's final solution.

Hitler would not tolerate any source of authority other than himself and soon betrayed the church. However he obviously recognised the power of religion to control the population so sought to establish his own church with him as its head.


Posted by: Lunapipistrellus at June 19, 2009 8:08 PM

What would you rather see them use BILL AYERS picture for DARTS,ARROWS,RIFLE BULLETS or ALL THE ABOVE?

Posted by: Flu-Bird at June 19, 2009 9:26 PM

I thought you had conceded that the religion a person was raised in did not determine their religious affiliation as an adult. No? Then I guess Obama IS a Muslim if we play by that rule because in addition to being born into the faith, you can also adopt the Muslim faith, and once you have, you can only be an apostate if you stop believing. Given that Obama went to Mosque with his father, do you honestly believe he didn't take the plunge? I don't.

Then you bring up the Concordat. How I wish I had a quarter for every person who brought that up who didn't have the faintest clue that the Church only signs Concordats with leaders when those leaders are ANTAGONISTIC to the Church. You see, there is no need for a Concordat when a leader is sympathetic to the Church.

Also, a fact you seem to be blithely unaware of is that Hitler had arrested and detained several priests that he used as leverage to make the pope sign the concordat. IOWs, the Pope signed it under the duress of knowing that the lives of those priests depended on him signing that document.

Further, your knowledge of what the Church did or was able to do to oppose Hitler is laughably bad. Did you know that Hitler outlawed the Catholic Press? That made it pretty difficult for the Church to criticize him other than from the pulpit or in underground homilies. Of course, if a priest denounced Hitler publicly, he would be guilty of treason and taken away to the concentration camps or shot on the spot, and many were.

Do you realize that the Nazis killed 700 priests immediately after occupying Poland? They also sent 3000 Polish priests to concentration camps and out of that number only 400 survived. In 1944 in France, the Gestapo arrested 167 priest and 123 of that number were shot or guillotined before reaching any camp. At the International Tribunal at Nuremburg it was determined that 780 priests died of exhaustion in the quarries of KZ Mauthausen alone. 1000 priests died at Dachau. These examples are by no means exhaustive, and they scarcely paint a picture of priests who are taking it easy while Jews are being sent to their deaths.

Of course, there was also the consideration that by speaking out, Hitler would retaliate against the very people you were attempting to save. That's what happened when one Bishop spoke out against the deportation of the Jews. When Hitler found out about his "treason," rather than deporting Jews, he sent them to the concentration camps instead. Not exactly in improvement in their situation, was it? In another example, Pope Pius XII had written a letter condemning the German actions in Poland, which he wanted read from the pulpits in Poland, he changed his mind after the Polish Bishops informed him that to do so would be suicidal for the Polish clergy.

As for the handful of anti-Semitic Catholic clergy, they were a terribly small minority, and their disgrace has been noted and admonished by both Pope JP II and Pope Benedict XVI. They were the exception, not the rule, and the fact that the Chief Rabbi in Rome converted to Catholicism because he was won over by Pope Pius XII's love for the Jewish people and the great personal risk he took to save as many as he could puts the stake in the heart of your libel against him.

Your tendency to read only the accounts of what the Church did that fit your prejudice against it does not speak well for your sense of honesty

Posted by: Judith M. at June 19, 2009 9:37 PM

it seems this site is all about weak associations and gross generalizations until someone from the left engages in these games. Then suddenly everyone becomes much more skeptical about the meaning of a weak association or generalization, and facts become scrutinized.

That's a bias far worse than fox or msnbc in my opinion.

This is how it looks to me. The world is very complex. Thousands of facts exist. If there are 10,000 facts surrounding an issue, you can find 10 that support what you already believe. If you care about the issue, you polish and frame those facts so they can only lead to your predetermined belief. If someone brings you facts that disagree with your beliefs, you'll scrutinize and rationalize them in a way you'd never do to the 10 that support your beliefs.

You can see how the other side does this but you can never see yourself doing it. You can see that millions of people in this world are fooled, but never for more than a moment would you consider the serious possibility that you yourself may be fooled. You'll just keep polishing those 10 facts. If you're really passionate about politics, it just means you'll collect more facts to support your predetermined beliefs, polish them frame them and line them up in a neat orderly way.

I think it starts with the core values which seem to be universal, but then gets twisted in a million ways when someone tells you how to live by those values.

Like honesty. On an online blog discussing the politics that will partly shape our lives, perhaps the most important value is honesty. Yet it seems that everyone gets sucked into the game of trying to convince each other of the truth, that the truth is always exaggerated. The most evil association is made as an example even when the association is flimsy. Liberals are generalized to socialists, socialists are generalized to nazis, and then an honest discussion of liberalism becomes impossible.

Posted by: Brandon at June 19, 2009 9:49 PM

white supremacist and neonazi groups to this day remain strongly antiCatholic. They stipulate belief in certain types of paganism or protestant Christianity (though it's a bit of a travesty to use the name 'Christianity' for their tortured version of it.)

I'm not pro-Catholic myself, in fact rather strongly anti- many Catholic strictures - I am fairminded though, and to associate Catholicism with the nazi movement is ridiculous.

And for the libtard troll: the mufti of Jerusalem was a staunch nazi supporter and consulted with top nazi officials (possibly even hitler, though I'd have to double-check that) about implementing the final solution in palestine. Several Muslim nations sent (volunteer) companies to the war, who fought under the nazi or ss badges. White supremacists and neonazis to this day support the 'palestinian struggle' to eradicate the Jews.

But Islam is a religion of peace whose name has been blackened by a minority of extremists, while Catholicism is a violent, repressive cult based on outmoded superstitions, right.

Posted by: mandible claw at June 19, 2009 10:00 PM

And whoever posted about hitler having much in common with modern new-age types - this is also true. There's a strong current of anti-Judaism and downright anti-semitism among the new age movement. I think the people who have researched it term it the 'rainbow holocaust,' as in: the Jewish religion and identity must be destroyed for the world to be a 'rainbow' of diversity

Posted by: mandible claw at June 19, 2009 10:16 PM

Well done Brandon. You get it. Judith still doesn't

I thought you had conceded that the religion a person was raised in did not determine their religious affiliation as an adultYes. So? This thread is about how childhood attendance at a Unitarian Sunday school is claimed to provide a link with a radical splinter group of an organisation the Unitarian church several thousand miles away was sympathetic to.

For some reason this is uncontested for Obama, yet Hitler's Catholic education and upbringing is vehemently declared not to be a link to the Catholic Church.

As for the concordat, the defense that Hitler brought pressure on the church is a lame excuse for an institution that claims moral authority.
It indubitably gave the Nazis significant support.

"At a time when the heads of the major nations in the world faced the new Germany with cool reserve and considerable suspicion, the Catholic Church, the greatest moral power on earth, through the Concordat expressed its confidence in the new German government. This was a deed of immeasurable significance for the reputation of the new government abroad." - Cardinal Faulhaber

Article 16 required Bishops to swear an oath of allegiance to the government: "I swear and vow to honor the constitutional government and to make my clergy honor it"

Fortunately many German Catholics were better than their leaders, but there were plenty that were sympathetic. Imagine the effect had the Pope instead of signing the concordat, had excommunicated Hitler for the heresy of persecuting Jews, which apparently many 'sane' catholic Germans thought was acceptable since they heard it from their Bishops.

Posted by: Lunapipistrellus at June 19, 2009 11:03 PM

But Islam is a religion of peace whose name has been blackened by a minority of extremists, while Catholicism is a violent, repressive cult based on outmoded superstitions, right.
Wrong.

Each of the Abrahamic religions claim to be religions of peace. Despite worshipping the same God they have a continuing habit of trying to kill each other.

Posted by: Lunapipistrellus at June 19, 2009 11:14 PM

THREADBARE...An Open Thread Postscript?
So Van Helsing starts with Ayers and Obama, and it ends up with Hitler and the Catholic Church. I know this is a 'tickle me Elmo' narrative, but I feel like everyones decided to dust the blinds when the house is ablaze.

The ‘However” moment…....to digress to the OT...

Barack Obama and Bill Ayers are surely securely joined at the hip. It is silly and ignorant, however, to attribute their association back to Obama’s childhood church. I taught Sunday school, and a kid his age doesn’t have the world vision to extract motives. Maybe his overseers did, and maybe they conspired, but please, give me a break—he was a kid. The conspirators were conspiring, yes, but he was innocent. Stop with the conspiracy theory—remember, conservatives deal with facts, not hearsay or assumptions. Having said that, I proffer a thought no one has yet offered, to show they met much earlier than Chicago.
The HOWEVER moment….Because it was a presidential election, and because Obama seemed a Godly fatherly surrogate, ‘multitudes’ bypassed logic and voted for ‘change’—a conjured, imaginary resolution to our ‘damned,’ everyday, real problems. Sorry…imagination is great, but it doesn’t replace reality. Reality is called ‘work’. And imagination is only here to compliment work, not to replace it. Folks, this is reality. Be a child and want change, or be an adult and make change.
The “I only heard of him when I was eight’ lie, will someday be the ruse of the century. As of today, it actually beats “the dog ate my homework”. If lies were compost, this would feed the Great Plains. To those of you who would not accept any anti-Obama facts before the election, this is for your edification:
In the late 1960’s there were several Left Coast schools which supported Socialist/Marxist ideals. They were Reed College in Portland, Berkeley in SF, UCLA (to a degree), and Occidental College in LA. The radical agenda in those days was the LITERAL overthrow of our government. Do you hear me? LITERALLY! The leaders of that movement were Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn, of the Students for a Democratic Society, along with fellow radical SDS member Wade Rathke, who started the SEIU (Service Employees International Union), who, to this day, is covertly guiding the SEIU/government push for a union takeover (like GM).
Barack Obama gave his first public speech at Occidental College in 1980. It was at the request of David Peck, of the Students for Economic Democracy, an on-campus affiliate of the SDS. The crowd was SDS. The school was SDS. Obama attended the SDS college for two years. Obama’s speech was on anti-apartheid, the SDS ‘life’ equivalent of ‘justice’. Ayers, Dohrn, Rathke, and every member of the SDS would have known and responded. It was their moment. Do you get it? Over twenty-seven years later, in 2008, David Peck, who asked Obama to give that 1980 speech, ran Obama’s ‘Americans for Obama’ campaign in Spain. And Rathke, to this day, is still involved with the SEIU, and ACORN, and is in sinc with Obama. The violent SDS, and Ayer’s, Security Chief in 1969, Marilyn Katz, was Obama’s public relations maven from 2002 to 2004. Carl Davidson, a SDS national leader in 1970, helped Katz run Obama’s 2002 anti-war rally. Because a comment narrative is not the place to vent tomes, I’ll stop. If all the pages were read openly and honestly, the ‘read’ would be frightening. These are Alinsky ideologues and they are on a viral mission.
When we speak of Obama and his relationship to Ayers, or to Alinsky, it greatly damages our effort when we attack his church childhood. He is, and was, guilty, but not as a pubescent.

Posted by: AlphaMail at June 19, 2009 11:50 PM

RE:Posted by: Lunapipistrellus at June 19, 2009 8:08 PM

LP concludes (somehow), "The endemic anti-semitism of both the Catholic and Lutheran churches undoubtedly contributed to Hitler's final solution."

"Undoubtedly"? No, Loonypipistrellus, there's quite a bit of doubt there.

The LunaBat continues with, "Hitler would not tolerate any source of authority other than himself and soon betrayed the church. However he obviously recognised the power of religion to control the population so sought to establish his own church with him as its head."

So, in other words, Hitler was not "Catholic" at all? Ha! For a minute there I thought you were trying to convince me he was....

Then we have Brandon at June 19, 2009 9:49 PM:

From Brandon's previous posts, I know he is struggling with a lot of these issues. He's probably gonna turn Conservative some day, but he isn't there yet. In this case he tries rationalizing thus:

"This is how it looks to me. The world is very complex. Thousands of facts exist. If there are 10,000 facts surrounding an issue, you can find 10 that support what you already believe. If you care about the issue, you polish and frame those facts so they can only lead to your predetermined belief. If someone brings you facts that disagree with your beliefs, you'll scrutinize and rationalize them in a way you'd never do to the 10 that support your beliefs."

Lunapippywahtever gives Brandon a "well done" for that - I don't. There's some truth to what Brandon is trying to say, but Brandon and LP are still missing the point, in a "forest through the trees" sort of way.

It's really pretty simple: Lay Catholic / Christian teaching down side by side with Nazi ideology, and there is no common ground. If you are truly Catholic, it is not possible to be a Nazi - and if you truly embrace National Socialism, you can't be Catholic.

But if you're a Nazi, there's no rule that says you can't lie about and pretend to be Catholic....same with Communism.

After all, "the ends justify the means".

Posted by: TonyD95B at June 20, 2009 12:06 AM

Good point, Lunapipistrellus, Hitler must have been a Catholic. That would explain why Hitler Youth meetings were deliberately scheduled to coincide with Church youth events and featured marching songs like "We are the rollicking Hitler Youth; We have no need of Christian truth; no evil old priest these ties can sever; We're Hitler's children now and ever."

And why the SS was headed by fervently anti Christian New Age nut Himmler who forbade his troops from having Christian marriages.

And why Italy, and Rome in particular, had some of the highest survival rates for Jews anywhere in occupied Europe. And why chief Rabbi of Rome Israel Zolli converted to Catholicism in 1945.

And why Rabbi David G. Dalin felt the need to write 'The Myth of Hitler's Pope' to defend Pius' legacy against dishonest moonbats such as yourself.

And why Rabbi Isaac Herzog of Palestine said “The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundation of true civilization, are doing for our unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of divine Providence in this world.” in 1945.

And why other contemporary Jewish leaders such as Chief Rabbi Alexander Saffran of Bucharest and Jan Hermann and Dr. Max Pereles, the camp elders of Ferramonti-Tarsia also singled out the Church for praise in their support of the Jews

And why Jeno Levai, defending the Pope (against dishonest moonbats like you) said "The one person [Pope Pius XII] who did more than anyone else to halt the dreadful crime and alleviate its consequences, is today made the scapegoat for the failures of others"

And why Hitler made staunchly anti Christian Alfred Rosenberg the primary disseminator of official Nazi philosophy.

And why equally staunchy anti Christian Baldur von Shirach.

Posted by: O Muorto Che Pparla at June 20, 2009 2:34 AM

Baldur von Sirach was made head of the Hitler Youth

*fixed*

Posted by: O Muorto Che Pparla at June 20, 2009 2:36 AM

Lunabat and Brandon still don't get it. Most of this thread has been taken up with vile and untrue attacks on the Catholic Church. Van Helsing's post was bait; it's not a serious claim that Obama was conspiring with Ayers as an 11-year-old just because his church harbored criminals like The Weatherman. For the love of God, Ayers and Obama weren't even in the same state!

However, what the association does show is that a religious philosophy that prompted the leaders of Obama's childhood church to protect people from justice who called for young radicals to kill their parents for being establishment pigs, was part of Obama's formative religious upbringing. Alphamail is correct, though, that no wrong-doing can be attributed to Obama as an 11-year-old because of the screwiness of the adults surrounding him. In fact, the more you know about his upbringing, the more you realize his chances of growing up with any traditional values were almost nil.

"As for the concordat, the defense that Hitler brought pressure on the church is a lame excuse for an institution that claims moral authority.
It indubitably gave the Nazis significant support."

How easy it is for you to pontificate from your mother's basement by the warm glow of the computer screen with the full benefit of historical hindsight. But let's step back into the historical reality of when the Concordat was signed. The first thing to consider is that the Final Solution was still years from even being discussed and the Pope had the current safety of REAL HUMAN BEINGS TO CONSIDER. And when I say real human beings, I'm talking about both Catholics AND Jews. The second thing to remember is that Pope Pius XII was a brilliant diplomat, who no doubt hoped he could find a diplomatic answer to dealing with the Nazis. That turned out to be impossible, because Hitler was a man without honor, but for people who are always harping about how we need to find a diplomatic solution rather than a military solution, I find it absurd that you would have a problem with a person thinking that diplomacy should be the first tactic used given how early in the Nazi regime it was (and don't forget, we're talking about a religious leader here, not a military leader. What was he going to do? Send his Swiss Guard into battle against the Nazis?)

As for the pledge, I fall back on my previous comment. It was still very early in the Nazi regime when the Concordat was signed. The Final Solution was years away from even being talked about. Given the the fact that the Pope had the current safety of several priests to consider, the fact that the worst Nazi atrocities were years into the future, the fact that he didn't know what the future would hold, and the fact that it is standard operating procedure for Catholics to follow the laws of the secular government within which they live, it ceases to have the sinister connotations that you have attributed to it with your ahistorical approach.

Posted by: Judith M. at June 20, 2009 6:06 AM

It's really pretty simple: Lay Catholic / Christian teaching down side by side with Nazi ideology, and there is no common ground. If you are truly Catholic, it is not possible to be a Nazi - and if you truly embrace National Socialism, you can't be Catholic.
OK two examples of common ground between Catholic/Christian teaching and Nazi treatment of Jews:

Pope Pius IX banned Jews from public hospitals, prohibited them from testifying against Christians in papal courts,excluded from all institutes of secondary and higher education and confined them to the Ghetto. He also ordered the kidnapping of a Jewish child because the child had been secretly baptized and belonged to the church. Despite this he was proposed for beatification on several occaisions, to worldwide outrage, before finally being beatified in 2000.

Martin Luther, in "On the Jews and their Lies" laid out the 'Final Solution'

These are not some petty priests, they were extraordinarily influential leaders of their churches. To suggest that they had no influence on public sentiment is just silly.

Oh and just to make it clear, Hitler was a Catholic, the only argument is when or if he stopped being one. http://clsa.org/content/files/USCCB_memo_2006_0405.pdf

1) Decide to leave the Church (which supposes an act of heresy, apostasy, or schism)
2) Put this decision into effect ("realize" it),
3) Manifest this decision externally by submitting it in writing to the Ordinary (normally the bishop) or one's pastor, and
4) Get the Ordinary or pastor to agree that you really have performed the act of will to leave the Church described above and thus committed heresy, apostasy, or schism.

Posted by: Lunapipistrellus at June 20, 2009 7:58 AM

You are in way over your head, Luna. Again, you mistake FORMAL excommunication with latae sententia (informal) excommunication. Geronimo tried to explain it to you, but apparently it didn't penetrate the first time. Here, let me redirect you to his explanation:

"Informal excommunication is incurred by any Catholic who commits serious sin and does not reconcile Himself to God and the Church. There is no doubt that Hitler incurred informal excommunication."

Formal excommunication, on the other hand, is a matter of strict, legal procedure. In Hitler's case, the only thing lacking for Hitler to have been formally excommunicated was that he never submitted his decision in writing to his bishop, which therefore made it impossible for the bishop to recognize his official declaration. Other than that, he was a heretic, apostate, schismatic, who put his decision to be those three things into effect in his public acts.

And I refuse to get into another discussion with you about another subject (Pope Pius IX) until you acknowledge that you are wrong about Hitler being in communion with the Catholic Church, or that the Catholic Church sanctioned his acts.

The Church only formally excommunicates someone (i.e. issues a decree of excommunication) if that person's actions are seen to pose a threat to regular church-going Catholics about what is and isn't Catholic teaching. With Hitler, there was no confusion. He excommunicated himself by his actions, and nobody but anti-religious and/or anti-Catholic loons would ever believe that Hitler was a faithful Catholic adhering to the teachings of the Church. "

What you posted has to do with FORMAL excommunication.

Posted by: Judith M. at June 20, 2009 8:50 AM

Just hope no liberal political hack ever pushes for a BILL AYERS MEMORIAL HIGHWAY or MEMEORIAL BRIDGE or BILL AYERS HOLIDAY or BILL AYERS STAMP after this vermin finaly departs this world and gets to meet a certian fellow with horns and a pitchfork

Posted by: the great bird of the galaxy at June 20, 2009 8:56 AM

Judith M.....RE: Obama/church...You said it better than I could--that's precisely how I feel....

Another possible Obama connection I haven't seen touted, would be the idea that Frank Marshall Davis (Obama's self-admitted childhood tutor)and Saul Alinsky were associates, if not very close friends. They were about the same age (four years apart)and they both spent the 1930's and early 1940's working in the same small neighborhood in Chicago. Davis moved to Chicago the early 30's and was the editor of "The Associated Negro Press" for almost 12 years. He wrote a book of poems about urban life on Chicago's South Side, before he became a 'community organizer', and ran the labor newspaper. Saul Alinsky, four years his junior, was born in Chicago, and was famous (infamous) for his community organizing work on Chicago's same poor South Side neighborhood during the 30's and 40's. He started the Industrial Areas Foundation (IAF), and he organized blacks through the churches, and he worked tirelessly, with black community organizations, in rent-relief battles. These two were fighting the same battle, on the same turf, at the same time, for a long time. Davis later met Obama's mom and the Messiah was born, at which time Davis began to mentor the holy child. Right after his Occidental stint, and Columbia, and Harvard, where did Obama go? Answer: He headed to Chicago's South Side and became a community organizer, working with Alinsky's IAF, with the Developing Communities Project (DCP), and undoubtedly, with some of the old-timers.

Posted by: AlphaMail at June 20, 2009 9:47 AM

And I suppose if a Catholic kid went to a church where a priest was a child molester, you would be suspicious that the kid was a pervert when he grew up?

This is guilt by weak association.

Posted by: Brandon at June 20, 2009 10:10 AM

You are in way over your head, Luna. Again, you mistake FORMAL excommunication with latae sententia (informal) excommunication.

Fair enough. I'm not an expert on Catholicism and so I'll defer to you.

Which of Hitler's actions would you say have incurred automatic excommunication latae sententiae?

Posted by: Lunapipistrellus at June 20, 2009 10:23 AM

Obama is something worse than a Muslim - he is a democrat

Posted by: blue at June 20, 2009 10:24 AM

There are too many of Hitler's actions that would have incurred automatic excommunication to catalog them completely, so here are three that come to mind immediately: 1. His racial theories of German superiority represented heresy. 2. His plot to kidnap the Pope represented an extreme act of schism. 3. He didn't believe a thing the Catholic Church taught, nor did he worship as a Catholic, which is apostasy.

Posted by: Judith M. at June 20, 2009 11:39 AM

"And I suppose if a Catholic kid went to a church where a priest was a child molester, you would be suspicious that the kid was a pervert when he grew up?

This is guilt by weak association."

Okay, let's unpack that. I think I know what you're trying to ask, but the way you framed the question was too vague.

Let me put it the way I think you meant it. If a priest were teaching homosexual heresies during a young teenage boy's formative years and sexually abusing him, do I think those things might cause that boy to be more likely to became a homosexual? The answer is yes and it's not a weak association, either. If you look at the sexual histories of some of the more notorious offenders (e.g., Paul Shanley claimed he was abused by a priest as a teen, and more importantly, many of his victims became homosexuals).

That's why I think going to a Church that is "progressive" and that advances agendas such as harboring terrorists might have an impact on a young child's spiritual development. Most kids are like sponges. They absorb what is around them, good or bad.

Posted by: Judith M. at June 20, 2009 11:58 AM

Hitler was a Catholic?
Who cares.
Hitler is not runnin' the USA.
BO was a Frank Davis, Ayers protégé from childhood.
So how many of you were active in the SDS or Weathermen?
If you were ever active in the SDS and Weathermen you know well to fear the destination he has in mind.

Posted by: Black Lion at June 20, 2009 2:41 PM

advances agendas such as harboring terrorists

sure...

Posted by: Brandon at June 20, 2009 5:27 PM

Lunapipistrellus:

In two days of commenting, you have completely failed to provide a shred of evidence that any reputable, serious historian supports your assertions about any putative "Catholic/Nazi link".

You do your cause no favor with your historically ignorant and scholarly laughable screeds. Please leave the study of (and writing about) history to those of us with actual training in it, as you are only embarrassing yourself here.

Seriously, sir, you need another hobby besides quote-mining your way through any more anti-Catholic/anti-Christian treatises. I've heard golf is a pleasant way to spend one's time, though I consider it a good walk wasted. Stamp collecting has its fans also.

Posted by: GeronimoRumplestiltskin at June 20, 2009 8:45 PM