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When atheism was just "I don't believe in God," it was a tolerable bit of irrationality. When it became, "I don't believe in God, and I must constantly hate, insult, and demand those who do," that's when it became intolerable.

what most athiests do not realize is that christianity is a choice - all are called, few will answer.

hence, the wide gate that leads to everlasting destruction.

Another one of those atheists self centered secular idiots here one jerk who needs to be muzzled he dose too much barking MUZZLE HIM WITH PUBLIC RIDICULE AND NATIVITIES

Most atheists/agnostics aren't wired like this. This is their moonbat sector.
Can we just have a cage match with all theses narrow-minded hypocrites thrown in?

It's quite obvious. If God doesn't exist then neither do those who won't acknowledge Him.

For an excellent read from a former atheist, check out "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis. He nailed this subject.

Dan Barker was a Christian Preacher for years, believe it or not.

Perhaps his "christian bashing" is akin to the "white guilt" we see manifested in self-hating
doorknobs throughout the West lately.

Actually, alot of Libertarians are atheists and downright hostile to religion - like the guy that runs that Little Green Footballs site.

"Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds"

That's pretty close to hitting the "fighting words" threshold, and this guy has the nerve to call a nativity scene "hate speech". Amazing.

I'm a regular contributor here, going anon for this one post, and I'm a conservative/libertarian atheist. But even I think the assault on Christmas and Christianity is asinine. This country is supposed to be about freedom ... freedom of religious belief, freedom of expression, freedom of thought. I don't understand what is the big f'ing deal about having a Christmas tree in a public place. They're harmless. They're not offensive. The militant atheists need to get the hell over it.

Many of the same militants hold the paradoxical belief that we should bend over backwards to accommodate Muslims, most of whom hate our cherished freedoms, and any other crackpot "religion" you care to mention. It's OK to rub our noses in other religion's practices, but when it comes to Christianity, they attack and revile it.

fellowes, I LOVE the works of C.S. Lewis! He's one of my favorite authors and one of my favorite theologians!

That's cool Adam. Next to the bible Lewis is my fav. No nonsense, great intellect, not wordy and gets to the point.

I can feel nothing but sadness for this man.

I don't need public approval or acceptance to make myself feel good about believing in and loving God, so whatever this man has to say is worth absolutely nothing to me.

However, I believe that he will stand before God one day and be asked to account for this speech, among other things. I pray his heart is changed before that day. Calling the highest example of love and sacrifice a "dictator" is...I don't know what it is. Sad?

I never noticed that LGF was hostile to religion. Well, not Christianity. Islam, yes.

All these militant atheists come out of the woodwork at Christmas. I put them on

prove God in one minute.

These Atheist Moon Bats are CRAZY!!!! What a NUT!!!! This man seems to be a very unhappy person just like the rest of them. AAWWWWWWWWWWWW I can't take this shit anymore!!!!!!!

"I never noticed that LGF was hostile to religion. Well, not Christianity. Islam, yes.

All these militant atheists come out of the woodwork at Christmas. I put them on

Posted by: Karin at December 5, 2008 9:28 AM"

Charles has been on an anti-Creationism thing for a while now. I think that may be what Anon was talking about. I don't really consider it "anti-religious", but some people might see it that way.

These "open-minded" folks sure throw a lot of energy in their fight against something they claim doesn't exist. It seems that more often than not, they, like Marx, are just out to settle some kind of personal vendetta with certain begrudged groups. As others have noted, they almost never have such vitriol toward Muslims- Chris Hitchens being a very rare exception. Dan Barker is just another "Liberal" wimp who so busied himself with his "ministry" that he never actually got to know the Lord, and now he's throwing a hissy fit about it. Instead of being being honest and admitting that he's mad at God, he's using Atheism as a convenient cover. So typical.

CS Lewis was converted to Christianity through the writings of GK Chesterton who defended the Church brilliantly with wit and common sense. Some befitting GKC quotes:

"There is no bigot like an atheist"

"A strange fanaticism fills our time, the fanatical hatred of morality, especially Christian morality"

"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions"

Marx said that religion is the opium of the masses. The counter to that is that sanctimonious intellectual superiority is the opium of the Marxists. Christian values have, since our founding, given life and strength to the nation's institutions. Since the '60s America's government, schools and sometimes even churches have steadily fallen away from our founding Judeo-Christian values and the results are slowly killing this nation.

Yeah, but this nativity scene is acceptable.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/887756.cms

One thing I've never figured out about human beings is why they get upset when they are told they are going to hell by someone who adheres to a different religion than they do. For example, as a Catholic growing up in the Deep South, I was told by various people - including my best friend through my teenage years - that I was going to hell because I was Catholic. I greeted such pronouncements with a laugh, because, honestly, I could not have cared less what they or their particular sect of Christianity thought about the fate of my soul, nor could I possibly care less now. Likewise, I certainly have no interest whatsoever in any prognostications about my eternal state coming from Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Rastafarianism, Shamanism, Animism, or Wicca (to name a few) or any of their adherents.

So why do atheists get so bent out of shape by the fact that some people think they are going to hell, a place they insist does not exist anyway?

This moronic SOB has his own holiday. APRIL 1st! It fits them perfectly April FOOLS Day. Why don't people like him insist they work on Dec. 25th? Air sucking sacks like him make me want to do much violence, but I am a Christian, which keeps me from it. Praying for sacks like him is much harder to do than taking a 2x4 and whacking him up side his head.

Geronimo,

Off-topic but in an earlier thread you recommended some G.K. Chesterton books and for the life of me I can't find the post.

I thought they would be a good Christmas gift idea and I was hoping you could remember them.

Thanks.

cowlove,

Chesterton's books are available at Amazon. Another great resource is found at chesterton.org or google the American Chesterton Society. A good book to start with is "The Everlasting Man" which brilliantly turns history on its head and really makes you view the world in a different, probably more sensible way. He can be a bit wordy and uses some archaic and obscure historical references, but nearly every page has something profound to say.

I read a recent article in The NewYorker (a leftie rag, I know) that lays claim to GKC being an anti-semite to some degree. His writings are nearly 100 years old and some of this might be explained by that time-frame. Apparently he also found value in some sort of communal living, but I haven't found evidence of this in anything I've read. And consider the source--NewYorker.

Chesterton was a convert to Catholicism and he defends his conversion with clarity, showing the dire necessity of the Church in world. He influenced many important writers, such as CS Lewis.

I didn't see it in the article or while perusing the comments, but what the hell is the legal ground for this school not allowing this girl to wear this ring...

What's next - you can't wear a cross around your neck....

I don't get it...

Libs drive me soooooo crazzzy I can't stand them....

GOP Mike

@GOP Mike - There are no legal grounds as such. That Muslims find it "offensive" is enough to get a ban on something in multicultural (retch!) Britainistan. Bearing in mind, of course, that the knife only cuts one way - you can offend whites and Christians (and especially white Christians) until the cows come home and no one will bat an eye. The courts have continually upheld things like this on the grounds that the "offensive" thing is a violation of the "victim's" civil rights. In other words, the law doesn't enter into it, since without the support of the courts it doesn't matter what the law says.

Just like in ALASKA a few years ago when those jerks from PETA sent a whinny letter to the preist of a church over the animals they used in a live navivity last year even though i belive the animals were aciualy people in costumes but frankly those same PETA jerks are always running around in stupid costumes all the time to prove that only the estreamly stupid belong to PETA

Hmmm...amazing. Well, just to make Dan feel better, I bought a Nativity Scene at www.VictoryStore.com. Oh, I also bought the lights to make sure everyone could see it.

cowlove - check this for the chesterton books. i just googled "g.k. chesterton moonbattery" and came up with this - i did, however, use van's site search tool at the upper right corner...to no avail...'zup widdat, van?

nanc, you rock, that is all.

To stay on topic, my wife and I set up our CHRISTMAS tree today. We hung CHRISTMAS ornaments. We listened to CHRISTMAS music and sung along with the albums (yes, old school albums, Frank Sinatra, Johnny and June Carter Cash, Bing Crosby, and others). We are so filled with joy anticipating this CHRISTMAS season. Thank God for the gift of Love that is Christ Jesus our Savior

thank you, cowlove...::blush::

cowlove- it just ain't Christmas without Dean Martin!

Thanks for the link, nanc. Chesterton is one of my heroes (along with lvb!). He was a true conservative and a brilliant writer. I've tried to come up with an illustration to describe his thinking and I've concluded that it is not linear (Western), nor circular (Eastern). I thought it might be a sort of mobius strip that comes back around and over itself. But my final analysis is that his thinking is more of a spiral, or better yet, a helix, and best yet a double helix, yes like DNA, that we few conservative biologists see as a physical expression of God. He writes in a way that surprises the reader because it reconnects you with what we know to be true but has been 'educated' out of us. Probably too philosophical for this forum, but he is profound.

He is one of the most quoted writers of the twentieth century, and most of those quotes aren't just clever quips, but they are extracted from his numerous essays and books. Again, chesterton.org is a great resource. G.K. Chesterton, Dean of the School of Sanity at the University of Common Sense.

One more quote from GKC:

"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative"

OK, one more:

"Art, like morality, consists in drawing the line somewhere"

"What's next - you can't wear a cross around your neck...."

GOPMike, some schools HAVE tried to ban rosaries, on the grounds that some gang members wear them ("Zero tolerance" policy for gang items, etc.), but two students who got in trouble for it sued the school for violating their 1st Amendment rights, and won.

lvb - you would LOVE effjay!

nanc - I tried effjay and I guess I just don't get it. I'll try again when I'm in a different frame of mind.

One last GKC quote for the road:

"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him"

lvb - he's a philosopher and burns most of his posts just when they start getting good.

Hey fellowes, a logical fallacy is not a convincing argument for anything. Anon. Libertarian, I don't know where you live but I don't see that "bending over backwards" to promote Islam happening anywhere. What the problem is, is placing religious Christmas displays--not trees, not reindeer, not Santa (and how ironic BTW, for Christians to claim those symbols when it suits them and denounce them as demeaning the true meaning of Christmas any other time)--on public property. Because if you do that, then any and every other religion would have a right to display its symbols there as well. So if we want to avoid that clutter, then nobody can do it. It's called separation of church and state. Read real history, not the current spate of revisionist twaddle and you'll find that the Founders did indeed have such an intention. There is no "war on Christmas". You can put as much Christmas stuff on your own PRIVATE property as you like. Stop being so paranoid and thin-skinned. Know why you think you're being persecuted? Typical projection. BTW, I'm not an atheist, but it's none of your business what my religion is, either. No, not Islam, since I'm sure you'll all think I'm an America-hating terrorist for daring to contradict sanctimonious Christians. Another thing, I chose only this topic to post on, but I've rarely seen so much ignorant, hysterical hyperbole in one place. I'm sure you're proud. BTW, moonbat is a completely idiotic-sounding term. You only make YOURSELF look foolish in constantly using it. I'll be surprised if this comment even survives, but if it does don't waste your energy throwing your invective at me because I won't be back to read it. I've said all I need to say.

tsi - you dumb shiite, you! you don't believe there's a war on christian/western ideals?

sure hope the sand in your nostrils isn't too uncomfortable:

things muslims hate.

coming to a neighborhood near YOU. why wouldn't your pitiable comment survive or be posted? van is not given to NOT allowing moonbats their say. WHAT? do you think you're on a leftard site?

you will hate judeo/christian values at your own peril.

In God's word the bibe he explains perfectly well those that are destant for hell. You see there will be no excuse on judgment day why a person did not except Jesus Christ as lord as savior. (Romans chapter 1). At the return of Jesus christ; every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord of Lord. You talking about an spectacular event, the one that people said would never come, are they do'nt believe in him, are where is he.

The same thing people have been saying today about jesus is writen in the bible

(2nd Peter chapter 3 verse 3'4) Knowing this first, that days scoffers, walking after their own lust, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the father fell asleep: (spirital sleep) all things continue as they were from the begining of creation.

Its time to wake-up because now is the time for salvation while it is still time.

Read the Bible at (blue Letter Bible website)

Hey TSI, exposing the fallacy of atheism doesn't require philosophical chops, since the truth is rather apparent regardless of how it's phrased. Your point is moot.

Over the years I've taken a lot of heat from relatives and friends over my displeasure when it comes to the very pagan pseudo-christian displays (decorated trees, santa figures, easter bunnies etc.). Even creche scenes are reminiscent of the mother-virgin cult that has no place in Christ. But -- do you see me placing signs up next to holiday displays stating that I despise what's there? Of course not. There are more appropriate forums and times for that and these atheists know that.

I will agree however that these holiday displays should be restricted to private property. Notice I didn't say anything about the ten commandments etc. (frescoes of which are engraved on the supreme court building of this land). There's a difference between true displays of Christian moral values and the gaudy holiday tinsel out there. I wish Christians would stick to true priorities of faith and stop defending symbolism that is questionable in its value and taste. Christianity is a faith of the mature mind. I don't think we should be using disney theme tactics to lure in the kids.

fellowes - i could not agree with you more - please check this finely tuned article by jack kelley - speaks to the heart of christians who are fed up with the glitz of this commercialized load of bull - Yeshua must be saddened as to what this has become.

Why is it that Christains only think Christians should be free from attack, and no one else?

Don't get me wrong, they SHOULD be free from attack, whether by athiests or homosexual activists or whoever else. But if you are a non Christian living in the South...this is what I've been dealing with my whole life. I attend Temple Shir Shalom in Gainesville, Fl and we are CONSTANTLY under attack by Christians. They regularly protest during our services, and interrupt our cultural events around town. These aren't anti-Semites doing this, they are evangelical and baptist Christians who don't hate Jews...they just think it's their duty to harass anyone who isn't Christian into being Christians.

This is a common problem for Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims...anyone who lives in the South and isn't Christian. Unless of course you're a Unitarian Christian, in which you probably do face some sort of regular harassment from Christian protestors. But whenever we complain about it, we are told that it is their freedom of speech and expression to do and say whatever they want, we are met with absolutely no sympathy from the community at large. We're told "This is America, they can say any horrible thing to you, even as you are walking in the door to your Temple on a high Holy day."

Now two wrongs don't make a right, obviously...
but can you guys understand why it's hard for me to sympathize with Christians when they come under attack like this, when we have been facing this sort of harassment from Christians for DECADES and no one has EVER cared about it, and called us "whiners" who need to "just deal with it"?

ariana - you are sorely mistaken - TRUE christians would never behave in such a manner. leftist "christians", however, are another story...

guess you could call them "cino's"!

Nanc,
That is absolutely ridiculous. They are NOT leftist Christians. They are almost ALWAYS from the local baptist church, which are almost 100% conservatvative. That is a diosgusting ploy you just tried right there. I have been dealing with these people ALL MY LIFE and they are CONSERVATIVES. In fact on their signs they wave in our faces that list those who will face God's judgement, liberals are almost ALWAYS on the list.

Just go to a couple Jewish or Buddhist or any other non CHristian cultural event in a souther town and see for yourself, you don't need to take my word for it 9 times out of 10 there are protesters screaming at children they will go to hell..and they are all conservative.

But of course, not ALL baptists are like that, I know that. I know that it is a small minority of conservative baptists who harass us...but as I said the REST of the Christians in town have no problem with it or sympathy when we try and get the community involved to condemn this constant harassment. This is a widespread problem throughout the south for Non CHristians. But when we try and look for community support... they just say "freedom of speech" and tell us to shut up about it. They even call us "intolerant" for saying we don't want these people outside our Temples!!! But then all of a sudden athiests and gays are doing to Christians what they've been doing to us for my whole life, and I just wonder why we are supposed to feel bad for you when everyone just rolled their eyes art us? And the other thing is, the incidences of harassment against Christians is just miniscule compared to the other way around. I'll bet anyone here has only ever seen these protestors on the news. You haven't actually had to deal with it in real life. If you are a on CHristians in the south, you HAVE had to deal with it in rea life, constantly.

Furthermore, I lived in Providence, R.I. until I was eleven and I never even HEARD of anything like this happening. But as soon as I moved to Gainesville (which is far from the cost and therefor the county is a very conservative region, minus the college students) this became commonplace, so that now I am surprised when there AREN'T protestors at least once a week outside the Temple, or at any public celebrations or events we hold.

Nance, I am just so mad that you just tell me, who has faced this my whole life, am mistaken. I'm NOT mistaken. I KNOW who these people are. Obviously they exist on the left as well, as can be seen from the above clip. But as I said, they exist on the left so rarely that YOU only know about them because the internet exists. I have to deal with this IN REAL LIFE and my CHILDREN have to deal with this in real life on a regular basis. Now again, these are an extreme minority of conservative baptists, I absolutely know this. And I agree these are not true Christians. I think they in no way represent Christians at large. But they are tolerated by the community at large, which is the main problem. So from my point of view, the community at large should care when Christians have to see a blow hard athiest on the news... but not when Jewish children get screamed at as part of their normal lives? Why?

Also Nanc,
Unless you live in a blue state, the fact that you don't even know that this phenomenon exists proves to me you don't have ANY non Christian friends. Because if you did you would know that harassment by conservative CHristians is a huge part of our life. So thanks for showing what kind of person you are.

Ariana, I must admit that I am shocked that that kind of harrassment happens to people of other faiths, but not surprised. Our country seems to have produced many people who justify the most hateful and intolerant behaviors in the last several years, but I think what nanc was trying to portray is that every religion has a segment that is intolerant and just doesn't "Get the message". I and many others don't view them as being "real representives of what Christ taught".
We are supposed to be known by our love, which should reflect the love our Savior demonstrated on the cross, not the darkness of intolerance. I am so sorry that you and your children have not recieved the support of Christians in your community. If that were happening in mine, I would do the same thing I have done with the Patriot Guard Riders to those demons who call themselves a church in Kansas, but promote Satan's hatred toward our troops. I am sure those were the "kind of so called Christians" nanc was referring to. God bless you and your family during your Hannukah celebration and may you recieve peace and comfort. And since I was raised by Southern Christians, please accept my apology for the ignorance some southerners have subjected you and your family to.

Sorry... I accidentally posted above on Anonymous... yikes! Good way to be mistaken for a moonbat! LOL!!!

All of the bashing of Dan Barker does not address one interesting point: the loving, forgiving, saved, chosen and special "Christianists" dislike his speech, but cannot find a factual fault within its content.

Well Ariana, it's largely true what you've mentioned about the Baptists -- they're pretty rabid, and don't say the "rapture" isn't real unless you want an earful of vehement talking to LOL.

I'm a non-denominational Christian and btw, Christ never begged anyone to follow Him nor did He tolerate guerilla tactics to get people into His camp. He simply spoke and let it go at that. And we as Christians should follow that example. Sorry for the harassment where you live. I've lived in the South most of my life and have witnessed a thing or two that supports your view.

"Jesus Crust" eh? Well that's moonbat respect.

By the way, the word "Lord" comes from an english word meaning,
"protector of the loaf" (bread that is). And since Jesus the Christ was and is the "bread of life", then I reckon you weren't too far off course with the "crust" comment despite the fact that you intended to insult Him. Such irony.

Thanks nanc -- will be sure to check out the Jack Kelley link.

True Christian believers would do themselves a great service if they honestly researched Catholic (mother-virgin cult??) doctrine regarding any and every topic in Catholic teaching. There is true wisdom in the Church, unmatched, imo, by any other institution on earth. It is not worth it to the skeptic to argue these points because it is only achievable through one's own drive to find it.

To give a single sample, Catholic teaching on Biblical interpretation falls into four main categories. One, and not necessarily the most important, is a literal interpretation of The Bible. That may sound blasphemous to the Fundamentalist or Protestant Christian, but there is sound reasoning for it. Literal interpretation of any written source (including the inspired and revealed Word of God) is the simplest, most basic, and often the least intellectual method to reach the true meaning within. Think of using literal interpretation on any great novel, poetry, music, even science and nature, and it becomes obvious that truth is out of reach if only one treatment is used or is used above all else. Catholics do believe in and integrate a literal reading, but not at the expense of other, often deeper and wiser methods.

The point is, if you seek truth and wisdom, and you are not afraid to admit that it just might be from a source that you may have never considered, or that you may have even thought was somehow 'unwise', The Catholic Church is worth an honest look. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the authentic reference text.

Merry Christmas. Trees, Santas, Nativity scenes, Virgin Mothers and all.

It was funny when this Barker loon talked about how the pagan Winter Solstice first had "All the presents, all the love, everything." It also had human sacrifices, Dan!
How can he claim that the nativity scene is an attack on human values? It's about the birth of a Savior, about love and mercy. Christ is a Savior, not a dictator.

arianna - we live in arkansas and our children have spent their fair share of time being called hateful names for their positions on israel and jews. they pray daily for both and take the bible seriously and literally when it comes to the jew. they suffered the same miseries in californistan.

those who claim "christianity" who persecute jews are NOT christians. period.

my heart goes out to you and i do go on my face for israel on a regular basis and i'm not above pointing out to closeminded windbags that Yeshua IS a jew.

I see that the "Quayle Troll" has returned to our midst. Oh lucky us... LOL!!!

lvb-rocks: I have a great deal of respect for Catholism but don't agree with everything they believe. I believe the Bible and the teachings of Christ are open to much translation due to the fact that so much had to be spoken in symbolism as opposed to literal facts. I think it was due to the fact that there were people in that time frame that were looking to inprison or kill Christ and the Disciples, but I think it would be fastenating to look deeper into the knowledge that is in the Catholic teaching. I believe that one's relationship with God and Jesus is very personal. Why would God have made us all so different and give us the "choice option" if he didn't allow for different interpretations? Peace be with you during the holiday season.

Thanks HoosierArmyMom. I'm certainly not capable of defending everything Catholic. I'm a cradle Catholic and I've always had a strong faith and natural attraction to the Church (mostly due to my wonderful Irish grandmother), but I've just recently begun to investigate Catholicism in depth in my middle years. The huge world of Catholic philosophical wisdom has been astounding to me. You could almost say I've been reconverted (born-again?) into the Church I've belonged to my whole life.

The point I wanted to make above is that the many aspects of Catholic doctrine that are controversial to non-Catholics (Papal authority, Blessed Virgin, Biblical interpretations, Purgatory, Holy Eucharist...) are all based on sound reasoning and deep philosophical understanding. You name it, if you investigate with intellectual honesty, spiritual integrity, and maturity of heart and mind, I think most people will conclude that, at the very least, the world needs the Catholic Church.

I just returned from the Solemnity of Mary Mass of the Immaculate Conception tonight, and this issue of Catholic's veneration of Mary was beautifully and logically explained from both a solid biblical basis and by showing Mary's role in salvation history. (This is what got me going earlier with the 'mother-virgin cult' comments above). I challenge anyone to attend Latin High Mass and not come away unmoved at the beauty, holiness and truth in Catholic Liturgy.

I used to think that Catholics converted to Protestantism mainly because Protestants were so good at refuting Catholic traditions. But some Protestants do convert to Catholicism and their conversion stories are beautiful. They tend to know far more about Catholicism than most life-long Catholics. Anyone interested should read Scott Hahn or Stephen Ray, both great converted Catholic apologists. "To be deep in history is to cease being a Protestant"--Cardinal Newman.

I got started on this thread because of G.K. Chesterton, my favorite Catholic defender. His writing is witty, paradoxical, and always challenging, interesting and fun. One more from GKC:

"He has come too near to the truth, and has forgotten that truth is a magnet, with the powers of attraction and repulsion... The moment men cease to pull against [the Catholic Church] they feel a tug towards it. The moment they cease to shout it down they begin to listen to it with pleasure. The moment they try to be fair to it they begin to be fond of it. But when that affection has passed a certain point it begins to take on the tragic and menacing grandeur of a great love affair... When he has entered the Church, he finds that the Church is much larger inside than it is outside"