« Woman Convicted of Defending WWII Memorial from Vandals | Main | Bureaucrats Forbid Parent from Accompanying Sick Child »

There was an article some time ago about how some people in Britain were refused medical coverage for a serious ailment because it was too expensive. It later came out that the hospital that refused them had a huge budget surplus at the end of the year. Therefore it doesn't surprise me that the nanny-state can find $736 million to spend on obesity "reeducation", but can't find $700,000 for a cancer diagnostic machine.

Some of their points aren't that bad. Promoting healthy school lunches is probably a good idea (though confiscating a child's bad lunch would not be OK). Teaching healthy cooking is not a bad idea either, though I shudder to think what they must be telling the little dears. The website with diet and weight-loss information isn't horrible, even though the government has no business in such matters.

These just terrify me: school staff identifying "at-risk families"? $3 million for bariatric surgery? What are they going to do, make people get it? $59 mil for "healthy towns"? What the hell is that???

I call you Britain, because you are no longer as Great as you once were.

Maybe the fat kids will be able to CONCENTRATE better?

But its for the 'common good', right?

Socialists should be killed!

I can hear the interigation (best SS voice). "Vere are you hiding those tvinkies? Vee have ways to make you talk".

Eh, well, we don't have enough to fund our police force, military, or healtcare, but we have enough to build a $736 million dollar "re-education" health camp for "obese" children. While they're there, they can be taught about the goodness of Halal products.

One of the saddest sights you can come into daily contact with are these disgustingly fat kids walking around all over the place. I feel really sad for them. Usually they are accompanied by their monstrously overweight parents who have clearly no idea how to control themselves or to construct an even moderately healthy diet. These kids don't know any better. they watch their parents overeat a bunch of disgusting crap and they learn to do the same. It's the same thing as having a junkie for a parent, and it's just as unpleasant a sight to be confronted with in the street scene. These kids are being abused. If their parents wnat to make disgusting gluttons of themselves as adults, well, so be it, but kids need to be protected from this crap.

Anon,
I've got an idea. Why doesn't the government confiscate every newborn from it's parnets and raise them the way YOU think children should be raised? Boy I bet every child would be the picture of mental and phyisical health. Of course they'd be so dumbed down they couldn't function on their own but hey at least they're not fat.

i the govenment should have the right to take childen from parents who physically abuse their children. In fact, they already have that right.
A child of 6 or 7 who is twice the normal body weight for that age, is a victim of physical abuse.
The parents of that child are wholly incompetent caretakers.

if their parents wnat to make disgusting gluttons of themselves as adults, well, so be it, but kids need to be protected from this crap.

Hitler should have just said "I did it for the children!" and the liberals would have agreed he did a good thing.

Anon,
Once you give your freedom to the government you don't get it back. So how far would you let the gevernment go in confiscating children? Over weight, acne,gold teeth, yellow teeth, bad grammar? Your kind just loves the power rush, you don't care about anything else, including children.

I truly believe liberals are abusing their children when they teach them socialist crap such as Affirmative Action is good, Man-made Global Warming is real, guns are bad, there is no God, welfare is good, self esteem is more important than success, being a skinny little unhealthy vegan is right...

I think these kids should be jerked from the sorry liberal homes they're in and sent to Boy Scout Camp for a few years.

Whadya think of them apples "anon"?? As ridiculous as it may sound to you, it sounds "more right" than the other way around.

i the govenment should have the right to take childen from parents who physically abuse their children. In fact, they already have that right.

Anon, It is not possible for a government to have a right. Government has powers, people have rights, and privileges. As the Declaration of Independence states,

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...

As Anonymous reveals, this is all about hate. Although progressives aren't a unified philosophy, they are perhaps most characterised by two things; inversions and hatred. The inversions are their constant accusations that their enemies do what they themselves do e.g. accusing others of propaganda while remorselessly deploying it themselves, accusing others of being totalitarians or "fascists" while being those things themselves and so on. And accusing others of "hate", when progressives are driven, ultimately, by their utter hatred (so eloquently expressed by Anon) of people different from themselves.

They really believe themselves to be superior human beings, a class of ubermenschen who are obligated to rule because the rest of the human race, the untermenschen, are disgusting, stupid, ignorant barbaroi.

Progressives aren't nice people inadvertently doing evil, they're evil people doing what comes naturally to evil people. Hate gets them up in the morning, it keeps them going through the day, it accompanies them to bed. It is why they're so successful; that hate impels them forwards relentlessly while their opponents- "conservatives" or "libertarians" or just plain ordinary folk simply don't have that nuclear furnace of hate burning day and night to fuel us.

Ian, here in the US, we use the term projection (as in projecting their own psyche on that of their opposition) instead of the term inversion. But inversion is an interesting descriptor. Reminds me of Isaiah 5:20 that says,

Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.

They like to invert everything.

fat kids are victims of physical abuse. period.

Farmer Ted talks about relinquishing rights to the government, as his current government is actively and unabashedly working to strip him of his rights. Who would have thought that ten years ago, government wiretapping, email reading, etc would be so easily accepted by the right wing in the name of protecting your "freedom".

You now live in a country that openly advocates torture, spies on it's citizens, and runs internment camps all over the world. Yet you claim all this crap about the left doing evil? It really is an Orwellian world we live in where words like, freedom, justice and liberty have taken on new and contradictory meanings.

It's funny how the right seems to care so much for the unborn child, yet once they are actually born they seem not to care at all about them until they are 18 when they can stick a gun in their hand and send them off to kill some brown people in foreign lands.

unborn child=good and deserving of protection
living breathing born child=shit out of luck
18 and over=cannon fodder

but my point , before you all went on your hysterical hyperbolic rants, about the left was that obese people lack self control and are pretty disgusting. As I said before, if they want to eat themselves to death, that is their choice. But a child should be protected from incompetent parents. An obese child is being abused.

I thought gluttony was one of the seven deadly sins? That's one you fat right winger bible thumpers tend to conveiniently overlook, isn't it? Even though there is no hell, in theory, that's were the obese are going.

Thank you for proving our points about how leftists are driven by hate, anon.
btw, anon, I believe abuse is when parents knowngly do things that they know are harmful to their children, such as beating them. If allowing their kids to become a little fat is anything, it should MAYBE be considered a form of neglect. There's a difference. Oh, and as an aspiring minister, I believe gluttony is in fact overindulging in ANYTHING physical, not just food.
P.S. a liberal like you who clearly has no respect for the Christian faith has no business trying to tell us how to lead a Christian life.

obese people lack self control and are pretty disgusting.

See, that's another inversion (or indeed projection). That description applies best to the Left- who project it onto their enemies. In this case, fat people, who are now subject to an identical campaign of hysterical victimisation and propaganda as the template group- smokers.

As to "not caring about children". No greater care can be given to a victimised plump child than to protect them from being carried off by the agents of the state. Anon and friends will rub their hands with glee as they watch the suffering of those they hate. It's the job of the rest of us to prevent that happening, however we can.

Who would have thought that ten years ago, government wiretapping, email reading, etc would be so easily accepted by the right wing in the name of protecting your "freedom".

Ten years ago? You mean when Bill Clinton was running the Echelon program? The program that listened in... not just to terrorist phone calls like Bush's program... but to virtually every phone call everywhere? To the indifference of the left and the applause of the New York Times?

Now, as for the topic at hand, yes, there are a small number of parents who abuse their children. To the left, this tiny minority permits massive government intrusion on the rights of the vast majority of parents who do not abuse their children. The end result of this is parents getting their kids snatched by CPS for unsubstantiated allegations, and the mind-boggling stupidity of zero tolerance policies, which have gotten so far out of hand even the Ninth Circus has said "too much." .

And the ultimate irony is, the state will snatch your kid away from you for being too heavy and the left-wing dingbats cheer. Some other parent warps their kid into a trans-sexual freak-a-zoid, leftists still cheer. It's not about protecting kids from abuse, it's about constant expansion of government power.

And as the Echelon example show, left-wingers are fine with expansions of government power and violations of privacy ... as long as their side is in charge of doing it.

Also, the stupid troll is so ignorant he doesn't know that the "seven deadly sins" are not Biblical in origin, but date from the fourteenth century.

Isn't it a wonder how people can be so ignorant of Christianity, yet so absolute in their hatred of it?

Government coercion is not the answer, but it is troubling to see so many overweight kids.

One problem is that people just don't know how to cook and don't have family meals anymore. The kids end up grazing on Doritos and other crap all day instead of eating decent meals. One thing leading to this is the feminist idea that it's beneath women to cook. I don't think it's exclusively the role of women to cook, but it seems most of the couples I know 40 or younger, it's the man who does most of the cooking if any gets done at all. Again, it's up to the parents to take responsibility for this, and it will have to be done in spite of the government and media sponsored brain washing that cooking is demeaning drudgery.

The media hyping every bad thing that happens to any kid is contributing to the rampant over-protectiveness of some parents too. Kids should be outside doing physical chores, having fun and playing competitive sports to burn off energy and learn skills, but they are steered away from it by parents because it might not be "safe". So they end up hanging around playing video games and chomping on the Doritos again.

It's all up to the parents, but it's an uphill battle against the trends. But as usual, more government interference is not the answer.

As predicted by just about everyone who opposes socialized medicine, a couple of smokers were denied health care for 1 year in Sweden. Who's next? Probably everybody seeing the wait times to see a doctor or get surgery going through the roof in most socialist countries.

http://www.thelocal.se/13000/20080712/

So v the k, gluttony is not a sin? What about the other six? As far as I understand it the seven deadly sins were created by and are currently recognized as sin by the church. Over indulgence in food is a sin according to your faith my friend. That is, you are going to hell for it. Unless you repent on your death bed, I guess. According to the Vatican now, and you can look this up, some "new, modern day" sins are the following: environmental pollution, genetic manipulation, obscene wealth, infliction of poverty, violations of fundamental human rights. What do you think? Catholic church says you are a sinner for this, yet it seems that a lot of you argue in favor of these things every day.

"obese people lack self control and are pretty disgusting.

See, that's another inversion (or indeed projection). That description applies best to the Left- who project it onto their enemies. In this case, fat people, who are now subject to an identical campaign of hysterical victimisation and propaganda as the template group- smokers."

Ok Ian, if i were to substitute "homosexuals" for "obese people" in my previous statement would that be inversion? no one here would have the slightest problem with that statement. I mean, that kind of stuff is posted here every single day. Why will you all rush to condemn the homosexual, but refuse to acknowledge that parents who put their children's health and welfare at risk are doing harm to anyone? Talk about inversion!

Let's get something straight, anti smoking as a concept is a Christian thing. The very first bans and prohibitions on smoking were brought forth by the church. Look it up. Anti smoking hysteria has its roots firmly in puritanical and orthodox christian ideals. The mormons are anti smokers, as just one example---ask v the k....although Im sure he'll have some strange rationalization handy.

Ok, but back to the real point which was that parents with obese children are guilty of abuse. I'm not sure how much govt. intervention is needed and I haven't argued for removing children from these families. sending kids to a camp where they learn about how to cook and eat a proper diet, while actually getting some exercise doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. If their parents can't take on this responsibility, it's nice the kids can get some help. Heck, rich Americans have been PAYING to send their kids to fat camps and weight watchers camps for years!

All of us , i think can agree a parent who injects heroin into their child, should probably lose custody of that child. We can all agree that there is some point when intervention is needed? yes? Now I don't believe that any of you are junkies, so I'm sure that you can agree with me on that much. However, i do believe many of you are significantly overweight, and that is why you 1.dont see it as abuse and 2. won't accept it as a sin.

Oh and Adam, neglect IS a FORM of abuse. And, I'm not talking about a kid who is a little fat, or even chubby, or whatever. We are talking about OBESITY. There is a definition of that word. it's not just a little chubby. You should look it up.

Secondly, I don't care how you live your so-called "Christian" life. It's none of my business, as long as you keep it out of my business. But you are right about one thing: No I don't have respect for the Christian fairy tale. Why should I? What exactly is respectable about irrational belief and superstition?

Not feeding a kid is neglect and is passive, overfeeding a kid unhealthy food is active abuse, often commited out of complete ignorance.

You're silly.

VtK: "Isn't it a wonder how people can be so ignorant of Christianity, yet so absolute in their hatred of it?"

Bingo. Until about nine years ago, this would've described me perfectly. I spent two decades hating and attacking a straw-man version Christianity given to me by pseudo-intellectuals and the media.

Exactly, Pablo. As is always the case with bigots, the more they talk, the more you realize how little they know about the object of their hatred.

Anon, I'm not interested in whether others here or anywhere else are hypocrites. I have nothing against gays- I've even worked on the gay scene. So that argument is no use against me; and anyway the "I can't be bad because you're bad too" argument is weak as hell; two wrongs don't make a right as my dear old mum used to say. But two wrongs do make more wrong.

You're disgusted by fat people, fine. That's your right. But in a free society you do not have the right to direct the government to maltreat them because of your personal feelings, just as in a free society a person can dislike homosexuals but doesn't have the right to impose official maltreatment of them. You have the right to disapprove of the homophobe, and I have the right to disapprove of you as a fat person hater.

What I'm saying is how the fuck dare you, like the rest of the Left, sit on that high horse of yours pretending to be against discrimination, brotherhood of mankind, calling other people fascists etc, when you come out with poisonous bilge like this? You think fatties are disgusting and a monstrosity? Well I think you are, and I'm calling you on that, because I think you people on the Left need a whole lot more exposing for what you clearly are- angry, hate-filled, viscious thugs. Yours is the same mentality that drove that previous awful crime of Progressivism- eugenics. Hiding behind buzzword figleaves like "child abuse" is feeble, just as pretending smoking restrictions are about workers' safety is feeble. You know neither of those arguments are your real motivation. You just hate fat people and think you're morally superior.

Well fuck you, and fuck your philosophy of hate. There are better philosophies than that.

And just for the record, I'm not overweight, even by the ever shrinking official definition of what "obese" is.

"All of us , i think can agree a parent who injects heroin into their child, should probably lose custody of that child. We can all agree that there is some point when intervention is needed?"

Well Anony, I think you will agree that it's "bad" to steal a candy bar, just as it's "bad" to MURDER A THOUSAND PEOPLE, right?

You stupid Liberals always deal in EXTREEMS, there is never a middleground with your kind. That is why it's so hard to deal with you; you will never accept anything but your own brand of totalitarianism!

ok Ian, after that diatribe of raging vitirol do you really believe I'm the one who is angry and hate filled???? Do you still believe that it's only the others who are hypocrites?

I stated clearly that if an adult wants to make a total glutton of themselves and eat themselves to immobility and ultimately death, i'm fine with that. My point is and has been that they have no right to abuse their children in this way.

"Well fuck you, and fuck your philosophy of hate."

nice Ian, real nice....This is a hilarious statement actually...

Kharn: what, are you 12? god, your a dope.

v the k and PabloD: aww shake your little heads in dismay....I know enough about Christianity to know it's a crock. Again, you are free to live your little lie. But don't expect anyone to respect you for it. Am i supposed to show respect for any silly little belief system that people chose to subscribe too? I don't respect Islam, and I don't respect Christianity, and I don't respect the idea that little blue martians control our every move.

What have I said about Chrisianity above that is untrue anyway?

I'm a bigot v the k? Hmmmm, I'd love to hear your views on Islam...

You don't get it do you, Anon? You go ahead and believe what you want to believe, however poisonous it is. I won't stop you. I won't try to. I won't campaign to get the government to take your kids away, even if I think filling their heads with your bilious opinions is "abusive", or your denying them the simple pleasures of childhood like a bag of sweets or a toffee apple is "abusive". I won't try and twist the genuine concern people feel for children into a political weapon to use against people I don't like.

You see, whatever you may think of my opinions, and however badly in denial about your hate-filled personality that you are that you can only cope with the cognitive dissonance by reflecting it onto others, I'm not the one actively arguing in favour of a totalitarian state. Indeed, I've nothing I want to make the State do; the only reason I argue at all is defensively against those like yourself who want to turn it into their own personal army with which to oppress people you don't like. Stop with the authoritarian BS and you won't hear a peep out of me. Our positions are not symmetrical. You want to confiscate children; I don't. You want to impose a single acceptable political view on everyone; I don't. You want to deny freedom of choice, to attack everyone who doesn't conform, you want to take away my choice, and everyone else's, to eat and drink what we desire. I don't.

You're the one demanding extremity, while I argue back in defense of moderation. You go away and sit in your little corner hating me, or fatties, or anyone else as much as you like. I won't stop you. Can you say the same? You can't. Your hate won't let you.

Part 1 of the introduction for non-believers showed that strong atheism contradicts its own worldview by believing the universe has a natural cause despite the lack of observational evidence for such a belief. However, since there is no direct observational evidence regarding the origin of the universe, why should one believe the equally unobserved hypothesis that God created the universe? Although there is no direct evidence for the cause of the universe, we now have a fair amount of knowledge about the early history of the universe and the laws that govern it, which provide us with indirect evidence that a super-intelligent Agent designed the universe. In order to keep this essay brief, much of the supporting information will not be included. However, you can click the links to the full-length articles for the details.

More on the subject here

It's gets really old listening to libtards squeal and squawk about Christianity being illogical fantasy when they have never studied it to figure out WHY the don't believe. They just know it doesn't fit into their Marxist ideal.

ian , I don't think you have even read what i posted. You are projecting an entire set of ideas on me that i have not supported. i have not denied children the pleasure of sweets. I have not campagined to have children taken away from their families. THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE MAKES NO MENTION THAT CHILDREN ARE BEING FORCIBLY REMOVED AGAINST THEIR WILL TO ARTTEND THESE CAMPS! You are the one jumping to extreme conclusions based on very little information. Not me.

I'm guessing you believe no one should ever intervene when a child lives with a family of dysfunctionl violent acholics? How about a child living with a drug addicted or pedophile parents? If a child is being beaten, should no one intervene on behalf of the child? Our split, I would suspect, is merely over the defintion of abuse, yet you want to turn this into some kind of vast all encompassing assumption about what I believe and who I am. Then you have the nerve, in a hate fuelled spittle spurting rage, to accuse ME of being hateful. i haven't used the word hate once. I don't hate you, or fatties, (your derogatary word, by the way, not mine), and haven't employed anything close to the angry invective filled tone that you have.

I really think you need to stop accusing the others of being hypocrites, and take a good hard look at yourself. MAybe you should take a little break for awhile.

Anony is the perfect example of a textbook lib. His first post is delivered clearly and stating his opinion and thoughts. But his rebuttals against Ian, Kharn, and V the K degenerate slowly into mud slinging, insults, and trying to steer the conversation in a different direction (bringing up gays and muslims).

Kharn, Ian, V the K, Pablo; don't waste your time on this guy. You can't convince him. Go out and enjoy life. Leave him here to fester.

Hoosier Mom, don't start, you're getting in way over your head. The total crap link that you posted is proof positive that you don't know what logic is. I know damn well WHY i don't believe.

I don't believe in resurrection or immaculalte conception, for example, because, uhhh, they are not possible, for starters. Your religion requires that I suspend logic to believe. That's exactly what faith is. I have a hard time accepting that idea. You are asking me believe something, merely because you say so. and you say so, because someone else told you to. Generally , i don't buy that kind of logic. That's why I don't believe.

conservative teen...your mommy's calling. It's time for dinner...get off the computer and go wash up.

"I'm a bigot v the k? Hmmmm, I'd love to hear your views on Islam...

Posted by: Anonymous at July 12, 2008 11:33 AM"

I don't know about V the K, but Islam is a violent, intolerant, supremacist ideology that is much more political than religious. It was founded by a mass murdering child raping gangster. Pointing these things out does not make me a bigot, it means I've taken some time to learn about it unlike most idiot liberals who automatically defend it as if it were a race rather than an ideology. And, yes, there are many decent Muslims, and I know and work with many, but they are decent people in spite of the evil ideology of Islam, not because of it.

Kharn, Ian, V the K, Pablo; don't waste your time on this guy.

I'll only provoke him to further displays of ignorance to the degree that it amuses me.

Go out and enjoy life.

Believe me, I do. You don't see me hanging around left-wing blogs anonymously spouting off insults, do you?

As for Islam, my personal beliefs about it are less important than the fact that I don't need to validate myself by ridiculing or insulting other people's belief in it.

Methinks Anony doesn't understand the concept of the slippery slope. Where he/she/it is blinded by idealism and sees this situation as a chance to allow government to step in and take care of children perceived to be at risk, we see it as a dangerous precedent-- the trip before the fall, if you will.

So many on the left don't think things all the way through and concentrate on the here and now based on what feels best-- what seems aesthetically best. They assume that all people are inherently good and want to apply that belief to society and, unfortunately, government. They want to believe that a progressive government run by leftists will take care of society and keep everyone safe and happy (I make the distinction of a progressive government because, adversely, they are scared to death of a less obtrusive, conservative government). The bad part is that people are NOT inherently good, society magnifies this malignancy exponentially, and government grows and festers like a cancer because of it. Good people are almost an aberration in this society. It takes a Herculean effort to be selfless and altruistic.

The point is that where there are opportunities to take advantage of the system there are always opportunists who will do just that—and by opportunists, I mean the government. By regulating our simplest daily needs and wants they can control us no matter where we are. Today it’s mandating that overweight kids go to fat camps, tomorrow it’s regulation of what overweight kids eat at home, the next day it’s regulation of what foods you are allowed to buy no matter what weight you are, the day after that it’s the issuance of government mandated food rations to assure that you are doing exactly what you should be doing to keep the collective running smoothly because your incompetence won’t allow you to make that decision on your own.

They laugh when we suggest this as an outcome… but that laughter is like the laughter you hear from young macho guys watching scary movies—that laughter is a front to cover up their fear of the movie monster. The laughter of the left is a thin veil of denial about the deep dark things that leaders are capable of when they attain ultimate control. They say we are taking things to ridiculous extremes to entertain such notions… but I think one critical growing flaw of our current society is the inability to see beyond what makes us comfortable and look at the eventualities that governing bodies are capable if allowed to run freely—to “take things to ridiculous extremes” when looking ahead..

Jeez… I can’t believe I wrote all this. Move along… move along.

so forest when you hate something it's because you have studied it, when i refuse to respect something, it's out of ignorance? right? Im a bigot, you're scholar? got it.

Forest i agree largely with your appraisil of Islam. I have certainly not defended it if you bother reading. however, You could just as easily substitute Christainity for Islam in your appraisal and you would have my view on your faith.

"You don't see me hanging around left-wing blogs anonymously spouting off insults, do you?"

No v the k I see you on one extremist right wing blog chest thumping and back slapping with people who agree with everything you say multiple times every day. I see a guy scouring the news for any little obscure story that can somehow be twisted to paint anyone who disagrees with your views as evil and twisted. I see hysterical and overwrought conclusions reached on little or no information. I see a holier than thou, self satisfied clown. That's what I see. disappear for awhile now.

I see a holier than thou, self satisfied clown. That's what I see.

The side-effects of your psychotropic medications are not my problem.

very witty.

Anon,

The same can't be said of Christianity. I won't bother with a point by point because it could fill volumes. But the two are as dissimilar as Jesus and Muhammad, that is - forgiveness and vengeance, grace and submission, giving and stealing, healing and killing, decency and evil.

And I'm saying this as a very secular person. I wasn't raised with any religion, and I still don't go to church. I can't really claim to be a proper Christian at all.

"What have I said about Chrisianity above that is untrue anyway?"
You said that it's a crock, Anon, that's definitely untrue. I would not be devoting myself to studying for the ministry if it were. I know Christianity is true, genuine, and really helps people in many different ways.
btw, to clear things up, I am not overweight, either.
P.S. Again, you have no right to criticize us Christians over the tenets of a faith which you don't follow yourself, you hypocrite. Then again, hypocrisy has long been the sign of a true liberal, so your comments to us have been unsurprising. If you want to talk about the Seven Deadly Sins, you've been frequently showing yourself to be the poster child for what I've long considered to be the worst sin, Pride (One of the most common sins among ultra- liberals, besides Envy).

Sorry Anon I've been tending the fields all day so I'll give you a scenario. You or your ilk try and take my granddaughter from her parents because she's fat, I will personally tear your nuts off and stuff them down your throat. Please call me on this. I will make it so.

"P.S. Again, you have no right to criticize us Christians over the tenets of a faith which you don't follow yourself"

Ok, so I can't criticize the tenets of a religion unless I myself follow them? What kind of insane logic is that? How can you then criticize the tenets of any other religion if you personlly don't follow them? I have every right to criticize the tenets of your faith. Don't you dare tell me I don't! I have the right to call bullshit when I see it.

"I know Christianity is true, genuine"

How do you KNOW this adam? How could you possibly know this? no Adam, you believe this, you don not KNOW it. You see Adam, simply believing something does not make it true.

But that's basic principle that many of you simply refuse to accept, or are simply incapapable of processing.

If you want to waste your time studying the ministry that's your perogative. But it does not legitimize Christianity simply becasue you do.

Adam Logic: Christianity is not a crock, because I study it, and I wouldn't study it if it were, so it's not.

Wow...maybeinstead of the Bible you should read a book on logic and reason.????

"Ok, so I can't criticize the tenets of a religion unless I myself follow them? What kind of insane logic is that?"

I meant you criticized us for how you felt that we were not following the principles of the faith (i.e. you labored under the delusion that we are all fat, and thus all guilty of the sin of gluttony), when you yourself clearly are not doing so either and to a much more obvious degree, between your blasphemy and your arrogance. That is what's known as hypocrisy.
Devoting myself to the ministry is not a waste of my time. No one I know believes it to be a waste of my time, not even my brothers who are an atheist and an agnostic.I'm learning to serve God and my fellow man, and I guarantee that when I get into the ministry, I'll be able to do a lot more good than anything you have done.
What I meant with my past statement was that I would not devote myself to something that was a crock.
"Wow...maybeinstead of the Bible you should read a book on logic and reason.????"
Well, funny you should mention that. In addition to the Bible, I read many other Christian philosophy books. One of my favorite Christian authors is C.S. Lewis, a brilliant man with an amazing faith who prided himself on always fully incorporating logic into everything he did.
Well, I'm done debating with you. Conservativeteen was right, you're just another pathetic troll not worth wasting any time paying attention to. So, farewell.

French philosopher Blaise Paschal:

Pascal's wager: "Either Christianity is true or it's false. If you bet that it's true, and you believe in God and submit to Him, then if it IS true, you've gained God, heaven, and everything else. If it's false, you've lost nothing, but you've had a good life marked by peace and the illusion that ultimately, everything makes sense. If you bet that Christianity is not true, and it's false, you've lost nothing. But if you bet that it's false, and it turns out to be true, you've lost everything and you get to spend eternity in hell."

I personally prefer to be lead by faith in a selfless, loving Lord, like that of Jesus Christ than to be lead by my own angst toward other people. It just works out better for me.

Adam, if anon ever studied the Bible, really studied it, he would realize that it *is* a book based on logic and reason. The Old Testament provides an account of the history of the Jews developing their understanding of the relation of man to God. The New Testament shows, through Christ's loving example, how we ought to treat one another.

As one studies the Bible, with maturity and reflection, one realize how profoundly truthful it is in describing the true nature of man... as true 5,000; 3,000; or 2,000 years ago as it is today. You realize that the nature of man is a constant, and therefore history is a constant. And the same rules that applied in ancient times apply today.

If you adhere to Biblical standards in your own life, you are guaranteed to live a good life. If everyone followed Biblical teachings, this would be a perfect world.

The Bible is a book based on logic, reason, and an understanding of human nature. In these respects, it is completely unlike the alternatives: Das Kapital, The Communist Manifesto or Dreams From My Father.

You're very "brave" against Christians, Anony, but let's hear you blast ISLAM! Come on, they exicute gays and women for offences that wouldn't get more than a "that was naughty" in a CHRISTIAN or JEWISH society. islam demands that EVERYONE worship as muslims under penalty of BEATINGS while 99% Christians or Jews would just shrug their shoulders and say "that's your choice". Knowing that, why don't you rail against MUSLIMS? Are you afraid? are you a TYPICAL LIBERAL "hippiecrit"?

And if you DO decide to write something against islam Anony, (Yes, I know I didn't capitalise it, or "muslim", I'm showing disrespect) I DO NOT want to read you TIMIDLY writing about islam before dumping on Christians like it always happens when a Liberal is backed into a corner of his own making.

I'm confused...Children don't prepare the family meals, they don't do the grocery shopping and they don't set the rules regarding how they spend their leisure time. Why aren't the PARENTS being sent off to camp?

Everything I can find on this program indicates that participation is voluntary. But this isn't: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article1434607.ece

Kharn, i have clearly stated a number of times in this thread that Islam is just as repugnant to me as Christianity. But I realize, because you can't write, that you can't read. Seeing that I'm dealing with Christians here, i don't really see any point in attacking Muslims here. You all do a good enough job of that.

V the K has again provided the most delusional, inane, and flat out wrong piece of tripe I have long since come across. Thank you for that. The Bible, I book that has been translated, edited, revised and rewritten time and time again in the past 2,000 years, is not a book "based on logic". Again, you and Adam, don't have the slightest idea of what the concept of logic even is. If you studied it, as I have, I mean really really studied it, you might be able to get it. But if you did your religious views would be challenged, and you are not truly prepared to examine them. That is obvious.

If you lived anything close to biblical standards you would be stoning homosexuals, sacraficing animals, and keeping your women subservient on a regular basis. You live a life very very loosely based on some modern comfortable interpretion of what you think the Bible is.

"I'll be able to do a lot more good than anything you have done."

Well, Adam if you will be talking to people about Jesus coming back from the dead to save us all from our dirty sins, you'll just be perpetuating one of the worst lies ever told, one of the biggest cons ever thrust upon the human race. If you tell people the will go to hell, if they do not believe what you tell them, you are a sick twisted scumbag.

I am quite confident that what I do actually helps people to a much greater degree, and gives people a greater sense of worth than poisioning minds with creepy fairy tales and strange superstitions. Good luck to you, sir.

If you lived anything close to biblical standards you would be stoning homosexuals, sacraficing animals, and keeping your women subservient on a regular basis. You live a life very very loosely based on some modern comfortable interpretion of what you think the Bible is.

Look, I'm speaking as an atheist here, but that's an incorrect argument. Christians believe that Jesus effectively replaced the Jewish Law, which is why for instance they aren't required to circumcise. The Jewish law is based on showing fealty to God by following the law, Christianity is based on faith in Jesus and His teachings rather than worrying what your clothes are made of or whether there's a battlement on your house or what's in your sandwiches. An appeal to the OT law doesn't apply to christians.

All of we lesser orders not buying the left's tired old cliches and failed policies are more than a bit flabergasted by how libs and lefty idiots suffer from a compulsive need to rant and rave on conservative blogs. Meanwhile these same loony leftists & liberals permit absolutely no dissent from their party line on the websites that spew their viewpoints and propaganda.
Those who call themselves progressives (the left's new old euphemism for communism that bear the stench of a 100 million corpses on it)quickly delete the posting of a contrary opinion on their websites.
Soros's paid leftists and their useful idiots stooges believe it their duty to spew their failed marxian socialist totalitarian claptrap advocating the imposition of the their morallyand politically bankrupt failed ideology as they assert their purported but non-existent genius and wisdom and relentlesly seek to use the powers of government to impose their harbrained and murderous ideologies on we their subhuman inferiors. Unenlightened conservatives of course deserve to be silenced and eliminated for having the audacity to challenge their hubris ridden conceptions of how the world should be according a long dead failed at life pseudo-academics.

The bitterness, the anger, and the hate of those who reject the love and peace of Christ is quite evident.

It's very hard to see what in secular humanism is based on logic, since it's central tenet seems to be to separate bad choices from consequences, and then expect that... freed of the consequences of bad choices... people will not make bad choices.

Well Ian you are wrong again...specifically regarding Chirstian adherence to the laws of the old testament....But let's ask old Jesus himself what HE thinks about the matter, shall we?

Jesus said: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"

so there you have it from the character himself...You do realize that the ten commandments are from the old testament as well? Are Christians not bound to adhere to them? it would appear not.

STUPID ANONYMOUS:

Just as I predicted, you CANNOT speak ONE WORD against islam without slamming Christianity. You SAY that you have spoken against islam on this site, BUT, you include the modifyer "Islam is just as repugnant to me as Christianity.". You then say that others are criticising muslims, so YOU don't have to.

No, that IS NOT "attackng Muslims", it is a cowardly attempt to cover you ass in reguards to your FEAR OF ISLAM. You do not have the guts to critcize islam, no matter how MILDLY, without slamming Christianity a HUNDRED TIMES more.

PROOVE ME WRONG!! SAY SOMETHING BAD ABOUT ISLAM WITHOUT MENTIONING CHRISTIANS!!

Islam is crap Kharn...does that make you feel good, you sick twisted illiterate fool.

I am repulsed by all systems of belief that lie and manipulate people based on fairy tales and superstions. All belief systems that require a belief without reason or rationality are inherently corrupt. When anyone asks me to believe something, just because, I am offfended. When they tell me that if I refuse to believe the line of crap they are feeding me I will suffer and that I will deserve this suffering, I am outraged. This can certainly be said of Islam as well as Christianity.

There you Kharn, I am not scared of Islam, nor am I scared of Christianity, yet together they both represent the greatest threat to the further existence of the human race.

Blind Faith=just another word for willfull ignorance.

As Pascal's wager demonstrates, blind rejection of Christ's atonement is more irrational than acceptance of Christ's atonement.

Christ's loving redemption is available to anyone, even anonymous trolls.

oooh v the koward that's nice to know....Shame that if I dont' accept his "redemption" (although I do not need to be redeemed, as you apparently do.) he will send me to hell for eternity, a place of fire and torture and misery forever!!!

Yeah, Jesus must really love me all right.

Pasacl's wager and your conclusions about it are supreme examples of why you are simply not capable nor qualified to discuss logic, reason or rationality. It makes no sense! I could make up any story about anything, for example little blue elephants created the world, and if you don't pray to them you will have to eat Mcdonalds food every day for eternity when you die..(actually, that's probably a description of heaven for some of you, but whatever...) The risk of you not believing my story is EXACTLY the same as pascal's wager. Do you see that? I'm sure you don't. Muslims can make the same exact claim about Islam and Mohammed, and claim that you are being irrational for not accepting their way. It's called BAD logic. Poor, poor logic..it is a completely and utterly flawed argument. Anyone, with even the most basic understanding of logic can tell you this.

Seriously, how do you feed yourself? You ought to be ashamed of yourself. i assme you are a grown man? Yet you are simply not thinking clearly..

It should also be pointed out that Islam DOES employ similarly warped logic to justify belief in it. it's called A Guide to the Conlcusive Proofs for the Priciples of Belief. Look it up.

Anyone can use that stupid argument for anything...

If there is a god, do you think he rewards idiots?

It's funny how your God sees me as a filthy sinner at birth, merely for being born, and is more then happy with sending me to hell for eternity if I don't or can't belive in him, yet you people keep telling me how much he loves me....nah, sorry, I don't buy it.

God doesn't send anyone to Hell. He gave us the gift of free will so that we can choose between damnation and salvation.

Further, my faith teaches that our spirits chose to come to Earth to be tested and judged.

"my faith teaches that our spirits chose to come to Earth to be tested and judged. "

oooh that sounds real mystical and romantic and all liek it comes from some kind of harry potter book or somethin, but is completely devoid of any real meaning.

i'm sorry V but the idea that anyone needs to be "saved" from anything, or that anyone other than yourself can do that "saving" is simply unfounded. Frankly, it's perposterous, condescending and manipulative. You should be offended by being asked to believe that.

"Anonymous at July 14, 2008 1:54 AM"

I knew you couldn't do it.