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That sickens me. I imagine the BBC crowd will be enlightened when they or a loved one ends up with their own heads disjointed from their bodies by a muzzie who doesn't like the way they live or how they believe in the United Kingdom of Islam.

"Nichollswas plays a member of the fictional group called the White Wings Alliance. The fictitious group is far-Right evangelical group of Christians inspired by the Crusades."

And the beheading victim was a member of a fictional group know as "the Moderate Muslims". The fictitious group is a tolerant, democratic group inspired by something other than the Koran and Sunnah.

"Christians are best known for charitable acts and forgiving their enemies."

not really doofus, Christians are best known for buggering young boys in confessionals, bringing their religion to all corners of the world at the end of a gun barrel or with the tip of a sword, killing abortion doctors, and running bizarre cult like camps where incest and and child abuse are encoraged behaviors.

Christians are best known for buggering young boys in confessionals

What you're describing is a homosexual who never should have been allowed in the clergy in the first place.

It must be easy, anonymous, living in such ignorance by attacking people whose beliefs you disagree with through the use of vicious insults, lies, and judging them all based on stereotypes.
That show sounds like one I'm glad I've never seen.

bringing their religion to all corners of the world at the end of a gun barrel or with the tip of a sword

The Crusades are indeed lamentable, as many who embarked on them used religion and protecting the Holy Land as a pretext for pillaging the countryside. Remember, the Crusades had nothing at all to do with spreading Christianity. Christian missionaries, however, did work to spread Christianity without violence or force, often going into very primitive and remote places where many of the inhabitants were hostile to outsiders. I don't necessarily endorse the practice of imposing your culture/religion/beliefs on "unenlightened" people (how condescending is that?), but at least they went about it peacefully, and in many cases did serve to elevate the quality of life through the other modern practices the missionaries brought with them.

I guess using Anon's logic, since almost all convicted serial killers tend to be liberal in their political views, then the other tendencies they display like engaging in perversions of one type or another, being rage addicted and antisocial psychopathic killers and so on... well, it would be safe to assume that ALL LIBERALS have those characteristics.

Any group, and I don't care what group you look at, is like that barrel of apples, there will be some who just aren't right. For you to "cherry pick" renagade individuals and provide them as examples of an entire group, well, that just shows how lame your argument really is. You are a pathetic, angry, little troll and I feel bad that you cannot deal fairly or decently with opinions that run contrary to your own. It must be awful to be so angry that you seek out people to comment to in such a caustic and nasty fashion.

Ah, our troll, who styles himself the epitome of logic and reason, shows his true colors, once again.

You have to remember that before WW2 a lot of Britons swore never to bear arms for their country in any circumstances. Churchill was totally against the grain of the whole zeitgeist of the 1920s and 1930s in Britain. Thank God they had him.

Remember though that before WW2 was over they voted him out of office and put in one of the most incompetent governments Britain ever had.

They really need help over there on so many levels, but the problem is they are in such projection and false fronting denial. If they don't realise unti it is too late, they'll be gone. That sucks.

Remember though that before WW2 was over they voted him out of office and put in one of the most incompetent governments Britain ever had.

We seem pretty hell-bent on repeating that history over here.

Amazing to me how so-called enlightened people today have absolutely no idea what Christianity is or what Christians are like. So to learn about them, they refer to the Crusades or Inquisition or some other medieval events.

I've got news for you, those folks who were torturing and killing for Jesus were not really Christians, they were using Christianity for their own ends, just like Nancy Pelosi when she makes up bible quotes to support her environmental policy, just like Rev. Wright when he preaches Black Liberation Theology, just like Obama when he claims some sort of biblical wisdom and yet thinks Christians follow Leviticus.

Lefties like our funny little troll, if they really want to find out about Christians, should simply visit their local church and talk to some people their, get to know them. That might be more relevant, I would think.

This is what happens when you learn Christianity from an atheist college professor.

"What you're describing is a homosexual who never should have been allowed in the clergy in the first place."

no, what I am describing is a pedophile, a sick bastard who preys on peoples' fears and weaknesses and then screws the youngest and the weakest up the ass in the name of some twisted cult. That sums it up. Sounds more and more liek the church has a really really hard time keeping people like this out. Seems to have been going since the start of the religion too. particularly Christian as well. I've never heard of rabbi, raping a kid, have you?

i love it how Chirstians just toss of their long and sordid history with the wave of hand...aww they weren't real Christians , it's a long time ago, and crap like that. Christians perpetuated the Holocaust...you do realize? Germany was and remains a Christian nation. Christian people had zero problem killing Jews like varmin all over Europe, not so friggin long ago. Now, i realize, that you will all tell me that there were no Christians living in Europe at that time. That anyone engaged in Jew hunting and killing was some sort of satanic cult member, but that is lie. The grand majority of people living in Europe during the and prior to WW2 would have proudly identified themselves as Christians. Yet, you expect me not to identify them with your religion? How dare you!

It's funny, the Muslims I know and or meet usually make a point of telling me that the terroist bombers of 911 or suicide bombers are not real Muslims. Thsy tell me that killing and suicide are against islamic Law. Which is PRECISELY the same things Christians say when confornted by the distasteful and immoral behavior of many of it's proponents and it's unflattering history.

How the hell am i supposed to be able to know who the real Christians and or Muslims are? Do I have to ask each one, are you one of those religious people who believe killing is wrong, or are you the type who believe God wants you to kill for him? Let me ask you this V the K are you a REAL Christian, or are you the type that secretly downloads child pornographyoff the internet. What about you Adam? Are you a real Christian, or are you the next Timothy McVeigh or Adolph Hitler. Kharn, are you a real Christian, or are you a member of the KKK. FArmer Ted and Jimbo, are you real Christians, or are you planning to take out an abortiin doctor? Is Jim Bakker a real Christian? Was Jerry Falwell? If you call yourself a Christian, I generally'll take your word for it. Now you are telling me that i can't trust a Christian?

As far as I'm concerned you people are all the same.

When you get over your fairytales, and your magic, and your invisible "father figures" in the sky, and stop looking for someone else to tell you how to live your lives, maybe, maybe we'll get somewhere.

The Bible actually provides a simple and logical way of recognizing real Christians. It is repeatedly stated that you recognize the value of a tree by the fruit it bears. If it bears good fruit, it is a good tree. If it does not bear good fruit, it is not a good tree.

Assessing whether or not a person is following the gospel is a straightforward thing. But it does require a grounding in and understanding of the Gospels. Cherry-picking verses and distorting them out of their historical and ecclesiastical context does not consitute an understanding of scripture.

Which is why Christians are instructed to study and understand the scriptures; a true Christian is not a mindless sheep. I am always pleasantly surprised in my Sunday School classes how someone always manages to find something profound in a passage scripture that others had overlooked. And by sharing it, we all grow in understanding.

"It's funny, the Muslims I know and or meet usually make a point of telling me that the terroist bombers of 911 or suicide bombers are not real Muslims. Thsy tell me that killing and suicide are against islamic Law."

Killing is not against Islamic law. Islamic law prescribes killing in several circumstances. If they told you killing was against Islami law, they were lying to you. This is one of the key differences between Islam and most other religions. Islam does clearly tell true velievers to take matters into their own hands and kill non-believers and apostates under some circumstances.

Back to the moderate friends; Instead of trying to convince a naive kuffar that Islam is non-violent, why don't these folks take on the Islamic organizations and imams who say the opposite? Hamas, for example, doesn't try to pretend Islam is non-violent, and they provide copious scripture quotations to support their violent stance. The moderates you speak of can rarely refute the fundamentalist's arguments, and they know it. The so-called radicals have the goods, and the "moderates" do not. I've never heard a convincing argument that Islam is in fact peaceful and tolerant toward other groups, and there is daily anecdotal evidence to the contrary as well as all the prescriptive scripture that clearly advocates violence.

"He who changes his (Muslim) religion, kill him."

Germany was and remains a Christian nation. Christian people had zero problem killing Jews like varmin all over Europe, not so friggin long ago.

Germany was, and remains a Socialist nation. Socialists people had zero problems killing jews like vermin all over Europe, not so frigging long ago. ... yet, you expect me not to identify them with your socialist country? How dare you!

I've never heard of rabbi, raping a kid, have you?
I've heard plenty of gym teachers abusing children, outlaw gym, and to be on the safe-side teachers they must all be guilty by association right?

...and then screws the youngest and the weakest up the ass in the name of some twisted cult.
Really, so these Pederast (the correct term you're looking for) Priests, are doing it in the name of Christianity are they? Its a good job we have some "enlightened" socialist here explaining things for us.

Are you a real Christian, or are you the next Timothy McVeigh or Adolph Hitler.
Yep, both of them were good Christians:
In an article by United Kingdom’s “The Guardian In his letter, McVeigh said he was an agnostic but that he would "improvise, adapt and overcome", if it turned out there was an afterlife. "If I'm going to hell," he wrote, "I'm gonna have a lot of company."

Hitler:
The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity [is] the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State."
---Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young

This is what passes as "logic" in Britain folks, I dropped the "Great" about 8 years ago.

Great refutations, xantl. I would also make a couple other points about Nazi Germany:
1. Hitler was fascinated with mysticism, witchcraft, and the occult, and heaviy devoted himself to studying them. That's not something a remotely good Christian would do, since God in the Bible didn't speak very favorably of those who get involved with the occult.
2. Plenty of Christians suffered during the Holocaust, too. Take, for instance, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a priest who was sent to the gallows for loudly voicing his opposition to the Holocaust. There were also plenty of Christians in Nazi- occupied areas who were imprisoned and often killed for sheltering Jews in their houses, such as Corrie ten Boom and many others.

I thought it was that Great Secular Humanist organization called 'The United Nations' that committed most of the child-rape in the world today.

Of course, the post-Christian, left-wing secularist governments in the Netherlands and Spain solved their child-rape problems by lowering the age of consent to twelve.

How enlightened. (/sarc)

The more I read the embittered, intolerant, hate-filled, and ignorant posts by Christophobes, the better I feel about being a right-wing Christian.

Adam, lets not forget that Hitler and the National Socialists persecuted Christian churches. This was detailed in The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, by William L. Shirer, p. 240 in some editions, p. 332 in others in the Chapter headed "Triumph and Consolidation", subsection "The Persecution of the Christian Churches". For you idiot moonbats who dispute the validity of this book, Shirer was a reporter who covered the rise of the Third Reich beginning in 1934. "The Rise and fall of the Third Reich", is still today considered one of the most thorough, detailed and complete histories of Nazi Germany.

It is time for the Left to take responsibility for Hitler and the Nazi movement, which is, after all, socialist. The deep connection between the Left and Nazi ideology is explained in great detail in Jonah Goldberg's book, "Liberal Fascism." For a summary of the argument, please see the review I just posted.

The unique thing about the Judeo-Christian tradition is that these faiths regard each individual as loved by God. This belief underpins all that is good about Western Civilization... the belief in the value of the individual.

Naturally, this belief system is very threatening to Progressives, who believe that all rights are property of the state and collective. This is why Progressives despise Christianity and Judaism beyond other faiths.

All we hear from Liberals is hate and accusations. This is NOT the way to gain our support, ANONYMOUS, the great recruting tool of ANY movement is to make it ATTRACTIVE to the prospect, make it seem like his or her support will make the world a better place, or at least profit him/her personaly. You don't get followers by insulting people and making enemies.

So go ahead, ANONYMOUS, or any other Liberal out there, please tell us WHY we should think, speak and act JUST LIKE YOU.

My fellow moonbattery posters, I thank you from the bottom of my heart for fighting each and every day against these goofy trolls that continue to spawn on this site. You guys make me proud.

Thulsa, it's just nice to know we bug 'em enough to come here and call us names!

As for the BBC, they are beneith contempt. F'ing quislings. When the Moslems depose the Queen and fire Parliament, the Beeb will find out their 'good will' overtures to The Religion Of Peace were all for nothing. In'sh'Allah, baby.

How DARE anyone accuse Hitler of having been remotely "christian". One volume of Madam Blavatsky's book (theosophy) was found on his nightstand after this devil offed his family and himself. And not only Hitler, but his henchmen were entranced with new age idolatry (thanks xantl for mentioning this). They were devils and quite frankly many of the clergy in this country and elsewhere are just as bad. They dismiss scripture, don't teach it when they do know better, deliberately twist it when they do mention it and fill the seminaries with leftists and homosexuals.

Furthermore, I've never known a Christian to take a rusty knife to anyone's throat whilst the victim was held down by 5 men and saw through that throat without benefit of anesthesia (slowly too). Remember Nick Berg? I sure as hell hope any of these anti-christian geniuses do. The unedited video of his murder should be required viewing of all Americans and Europeans >18 yrs. of age. It was horrific and cowardly. Go view it and retch your guts out.

"This is NOT the way to gain our support, ANONYMOUS, the great recruting tool of ANY movement is to make it ATTRACTIVE to the prospect, make it seem like his or her support will make the world a better place, or at least profit him/her personaly. You don't get followers by insulting people and making enemies.

So go ahead, ANONYMOUS, or any other Liberal out there, please tell us WHY we should think, speak and act JUST LIKE YOU."

Kharn I'm not interested in gaining your support. I am NOT a "movement" Thinking, reading critically, and attempting to employ rationality are not group you join. I am not interested in having you "think like me".

You are a lost cause. Yoou made up your mind a long time ago, and nothing is going to change that. You would have to be willing to deeply analyze the very essence of your being, and what it is you think you stand for.

However, you are neither intelligent enough, nor brave enough to have your beliefs challenged, or even to truly examine how you may have devloped them. On top of this you are much too lazy to educate yourself, as you yourself have so much as admitted.

Honestly, I just like watching you get all hissy, misspelling every word in your raging screeds of all capital letters. I find you and your kind amusing. That is all.

Fellowes; Hitler sprung from a Catholic family in a Christian nation. Read something for once. I can easily provide you the links, but you won't read about how nazism was tied to Christianity. How the Pope colluded with Hitler, or how the German people who later became nazis identified themselves as Christians.

ANd it wasn't just Germany. Do you know how many Polish Christians killed Jews? Man, they were were REALLY into it. What about the way Ukranian Orthodx Christians murderd Jews in the Ukraine. Why do you think there are so many Jews living in America? It's because they were run out of Europe by Christians! They were freaking HUNTED by Christians! This is essentially the reason the state of Israel exists! And crazily enough they set them right in the midst of a bunch of enraged Mulsims, who also want to annihilate them.

Even if Hitler dabbled in the occult, he managed to convince an ENTIRE NATION OF CHRISTIANS to follow him and do his will.

Do you know what was etched into the back of nazi soldiers belt buckles? "God with us." What God do you think they were talking about? It sure wasn't Allah, it wasn't, Appolo, Odin, Thor, Yahweh, or any other of the multitudes of Gods created by humans in their long existence.

"I've never known a Christian to take a rusty knife to anyone's throat whilst the victim was held down by 5 men and saw through that throat without benefit of anesthesia (slowly too)."

Just because you've never seen it, dosen't mean it's never happend fellowes. Have you ever read about the Inquistion, the Crusades, the Holocaust? Have you???? Believe me, it happened, and quite frequently. There just wasn't any YouTube in 1942.

Anonymous, You're really a big bag of yawn.
Tell me how it was Christianity that motivated, and influenced the Germans people to murder Jewish people?, over their fervid support of Socialist Nationalism?
I think this might shock you, being the good socialist sheep you are, but Politicians lie - there I said it. Just like every Election, we have a stream of Politicians trying to identify with "Average Joe Citizen" by going to ball games, eating at BBQ's, and crying about the price of energy (despite being millionaires). Pandering to the "base" is something every Politician does. Having the Pope's support is a very powerful tool, one used even today, despite the sliding influence of Catholicism in our society.
Believe me, it happened, and quite frequently. There just wasn't any YouTube in 1942.
Interestingly, despite your other examples that were hundreds of years ago, many examples of Nazi torture, and murder has been rigorously documented. It might not have been on Youtube, but I have seen pictures of Japanese officers decapitating American Soldiers with Samurai swords in the Pacific? It is more likely no one has heard, or saw these acts because it only happened in the imagination of socialist atheists.

Interestingly Anonymous, Liberals always attempt to inflate the "Christianity" of serial killers, Hitler and terrorists. It is obvious to most people with a brain stem that anyone professing to follow the Christian doctrine would not engage in murder, but this fact can easily be ignored when you are a Liberal.

Here is a little test for your liberal logic:
"Davie is a Vegetarian, who likes to eat pork Sausages"
"Steve is a great environmentalist who drives a Humvee, and likes to shoot deer"

You being the good Liberal would point out the flaw that you cannot be a vegetarian and eat any meat, or be an environmentalist and go against the practice but that leap of logic does not apply when Christians ignore doctrine and engage in acts that are decried by the church?
Yet you accuse Christians of being indoctrinated by dogma, and unintelligent. Please measure yourself by your own stick, hypocrite.

You bothn sound exactly like muslims when seeking to distance themselves from terrorism. "But they aren't really muslims!" and Neither of you addressed any of the points i mentioned.

So what you're saying is no one who has ever húrt anyone else could be a real christian. No Christian has ever killed anyone? Why are there so many people maquerading as Christians out there.

The rise and spead of Christianty in Europe, according to you , was not attribatable to real christians to you. The Popes in the middle ages, weren't real cristins? How about Martin Luther, not a real chritian? He advocated exteriminting jews....you people are completely delusional.

Neither of you addressed any of the points i mentioned.
That is because your alleged "points" are nonsense. You have yet to show cause, and effect for Christianity being the motives for the actions of Germany during the War.

No Christian has ever killed anyone?
See sausage, vegetarian - Humvee, Environmentalist explain difference.

He advocated exteriminting jews..
thoughts, actions learn the difference between the two.

The Popes in the middle ages
The Pope is not my holy man, so I couldn't tell you.

I doubt you're even the original poster, he(?) could at least spell Christian, did not use foreign characters and could spell English words correctly.

"anon", you know nothing of Luther or you'd not have written the blather you did write. Luther's early writings reflected support for the Jews, he later advocated kicking them out and worse but in his later life, he recanted, yes, recanted and softened his stance on Jews considerably because he realized it was the Christian thing to do. His last sermons reflect this and he encouraged people to listen. Of course, not having read his sermons and other writings you wouldn't know this nor would you care. You're hell-bent on the leftard doctrine of one-liners convenient to your screeds. You're not going to wear down anyone by your tactics so go ahead and blather on.

so, in other words it's ok for a Christian to think, hope, wish and campaign for the extermination of an entire race, just as long as they don't accutualy kill any? Nice religion, you have there,.

And fellowes, you are again wrong. I know more about Luther than you would expect. He most decidely did NOT recant his statement s against Jews. Three days beofore his death, Luther gave a sermon raging about how all jews would gladly kill Christians if they could. Just as you all of you regularly insinuate the same agaisnt mUslims. This is what Christians have always done. Nazism is firmly tied to the violent anti-semitism of Martim Luther. He was many a Nazis hero.

Fellowes, everything you believe is a lie. Everything you believe is wrong. EVERYTHING!!! what a sad, sad delusional person you are. Lying to yourself....hmmm. I hope your lord appreciates denial....

Martin Luther was as bad as Hitler! In fact Hitler admired him. Yet there is an entire sect of Christianity named after him! Luther was also madly opposed to reason, thinking and rationality. He called them Christianity's greatest threat. This is something that you all prove on a daily basis. Luther hated Jews violently to his death, and he hated rationality. These he described as the greatest threat to his belief.

Really fellowes, who told you that Luther recanted his statements about Jews? Again his last sermon was exclusively devoted to Jew hating. He said Christians should pray for them to convert, but that those who wouldn't were murderous swine who should be expelled and banished from Germany.

In 1941, many Luthern churches supported Hitler's "yellow badge" policy because of Maritn Luther. Where do you get off suggesting nazism and Christianity don't go hand in hand? I mena it's unbelievable reconstructionist history you believe in.

Anonymous,

Hitler was baptized a Christian and did made early references to a vague "Providence" in Mein Kampf. But I direct you now to The Life and Death of Adolf Hitler by Robert Payne, page 35,

"Father Schwarz was a memorable character in the Realschule, and the young Hitler had a very special detestation of religion. He was always preparing seemingly innocent questions baited with his own superior knowledge. Once, when Father Schwarz asked him whether he said his prayers in the early morning, noon, and night, he answered, 'No, sir, I never say my prayers. Why should God be interested in the prayers of a schoolboy.?' Adolf had arrived at some fixed conclusions about the nature of God, the virgin birth, and the Kingdom of Heaven, and these remained with him to the end of his life. He had read somewhere that St. Anthony flagellated himself in order to master the desires of the flesh, and this seemed to him the height of Christian absurdity. Indeed, Christianity was full of so many absurdities that he thought it should be left to old women and priests."

Hitler's embracing of astrology and neo-Paganism/Asgardianism is well known. I'm not sure why you even bother to try and paint Hitler as a Christian, except in order to cast aspersions at Christianity. You may as well say that the Mongol Empire won WWII when the Greeks defeated the Vietnamese at the Battle of Hastings. Ignoring Hitler's Paganism is a glaring historical omission.

Anon, if you're ever interested in this kind of information, they conceal it in things called "books".

Panday, i have acknowledged that Hitler displayed interest in the occult. The FACTS are that Hitler's followers, those being the citizens of Germany, and of many other European nations at the time, identified themselves as Christians! These were Christian people and Christian nations acting on Hitler's words. Christians behaving in typically sheep like fashion. Looking to a "super" hero/person to tell them how to live and what to value. Europeans are and were not some satanic worship occultist cult. They were Christians. Nazism utilized Christian doctirne and the words of Martin Luther to substantiate their claims about the Jews..European Christians embraced Nazism believing their religious views were consistent with it. Martin Luther helped anti-semitism becaomea part of mainstream German culture through his religious justification of it. Don't you get it?

But really Christianity has been used like this throughout European History. Christianity was used to justify slavery and segregation in North America and Apartheid in South Africa to name a couple more modern examples outside of Europe.

Panday, i have acknowledged that Hitler displayed interest in the occult. The FACTS are that Hitler's followers, those being the citizens of Germany, and of many other European nations at the time, identified themselves as Christians! These were Christian people and Christian nations acting on Hitler's words. Christians behaving in typically sheep like fashion. Looking to a "super" hero/person to tell them how to live and what to value. Europeans are and were not some satanic worship occultist cult. They were Christians. Nazism utilized Christian doctirne and the words of Martin Luther to substantiate their claims about the Jews..European Christians embraced Nazism believing their religious views were consistent with it. Martin Luther helped anti-semitism becaomea part of mainstream German culture through his religious justification of it. Don't you get it?

But really Christianity has been used like this throughout European History. Christianity was used to justify slavery and segregation in North America and Apartheid in South Africa to name a couple more modern examples outside of Europe.

Panday, i have acknowledged that Hitler displayed interest in the occult. The FACTS are that Hitler's followers, those being the citizens of Germany, and of many other European nations at the time, identified themselves as Christians! These were Christian people and Christian nations acting on Hitler's words. Christians behaving in typically sheep like fashion. Looking to a "super" hero/person to tell them how to live and what to value. Europeans are and were not some satanic worship occultist cult. They were Christians. Nazism utilized Christian doctirne and the words of Martin Luther to substantiate their claims about the Jews..European Christians embraced Nazism believing their religious views were consistent with it. Martin Luther helped anti-semitism becaomea part of mainstream German culture through his religious justification of it. Don't you get it?

But really Christianity has been used like this throughout European History. Christianity was used to justify slavery and segregation in North America and Apartheid in South Africa to name a couple more modern examples outside of Europe.

Anon,

First of all, you cite nothing. This is just opinion on your part. And if you do cite something, it should be something credible, i.e. not something by Christopher Hitchens or something from ihatechristians.com.

Second, your "knowledge" contains no historical context.

Like I once told someone else who was railing against all of the evils the Church did in the Middle Ages: Europe was filled with some of the most barbaric, warlike people in the world. Particularly in the north, their idea of Heaven was to go to a place where people fought all day and partied all night for eternity.

Had Tibetan Lamaism come to Europe, they would have found a way to make it warlike.

Besides, if you really wanted to compare stats, then atheists killed about 100 million last century. That number is still climbing in this century.

When Christians start massive attacks upon the rest of the world in the name of Christianity, then I'll listen to you. Maybe others will, too. Until then, you're just grousing. Oh, and being a troll.