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And then when he's 18, he can be surgically and chemically mutilated into a crude facsimile of the opposite sex and everyone will cheer.

But getting him psychotherapy to accept and love the body he was born in... that would be barbaric!

How's this going to work in 8th grade PE?

They will probably just get rid of PE if they haven't done so already.

The parents of that kid need a royal ass kicking.

The parents of that kid need to be hung from the nearest lamppost.

And the sad part is that nothing would change even with McCain in the White House.

Dad must be very proud. I'll bet he'll never forget the day Junior fetches up at school in a pinafore and pig tails. Sniff.

Random thought: does Hallmark have this situation covered yet?

Well, if ever there was a time for a kid to be removed from his family for his own protection, this is it.

And then when he's 18, he can be surgically and chemically mutilated into a crude facsimile of the opposite sex and everyone will cheer.

Indeed. Nothing makes for a happy adult life like the inability to have an orgasm.

As I've argued before, ISTM that if we believe that sex is genetic (and I guess everyone here does) then it seems probable that a rare and unfortunate condition where the wiring is wrong may well occur. But that doesn't give the sufferer a transgender identity or whatnot, it means they have a difficult medical problem. It also seems almost certain that the current climate will sweep up many, many people who are delusional into this diagnosis.

Since biology is fixed despite crude surgical techniques (we're a long way from being able to grow them a new body of the "right" sex in a tank, kind of thing), there seems to me to be no doubt that the best approach would be to help such disabled people to accept what they are. This may sound glib, but if I'd been born into a woman's body, I'd rather be a hot woman with an exciting lesbian or even heterosexual sex life than a crude facsimile of a man with a non-sexually functional penis. Really.

We all have to live with what we are. A boy in a dress is still a boy in a dress.

Read the last sentence of the article. These parents go through hell. "I would rather have a happy living girl than a sad, dead son." One mother says. No one wants this for their child, but due to biology, something got screwed up along the way and the kid who should have been biologically female ends up with a penis. Would you be as harsh on parents of a Down's Syndrom child or a child with any other genetic or biological difference??? For all of you homophobes, it is not about homosexuality either. If transgenderism and homosexuality were one and the same, half of the homosexuals would actually be heterosexuals since transgenders are really the opposite sex of what they physically appear to be.

Nobody's saying transgenderism and homosexuality are the same thing, pjwolf, not here anyway. Perhaps you could explain why the left are trying to conflate these two very different things with the term "LGBT"?

Also, as I said above, if transsexism exists (and I personally think it does) then it's a profound medical problem, not a social one, and you can't cure it by social means. Indeed, you can't cure it at all with the current medical state of the art. A boy's body will not change into a girl's body because you tell everyone around him to pretend that it has nor because they've stopped calling him "John" and started calling him "Joan".

There is a presumption that all cases of people who believe they are the wrong sex are biological, just as there is a presumption that all homosexuality is biological, despite there being negligible medical evidence for either of these beliefs. That's politics masquerading as medicine. In the case of transexuality, it does a great disservice; because if there are two sorts (1) biological and (2) psychological, the case 2s will be swept up in the case 1s and be surgically butchered; and that doesn't get us into the even more important question of whether sex change is ever the most appropriate treatment for what we both seem to agree is a severe medical condition. To presume that disabling surgery- which it is- should be used in all cases of a problem which manifests psychologically is an enormous leap of faith which may prove, in retrospect, to be as disastrously erroneous as lobotomy. That was the in thing once, too.

We do not know enough, scientifically, about this condition yet. That's the bottom line. Conclusions have been jumped to for political reasons. That's nearly always a recipe for disaster. We can say with a high degree of confidence that right now there are many transexual children who will grow up to realise they never were, with their bodies mutilated beyond repair and the hope of a normal happy sex life, relationships, marriage and children forever lost. That's a huge brewing tragedy.

I'm willing to grant that there *might* be such a thing as a girl trapped in a boy's body, or whatever the f**k the "transgendered" thing is about. However, there is no WAY they should screw with a nine year old kid. Who the hell knows what's going on in pre-puberty? They should let the kid grow up, and then at 15 or 17 if he feels a need to wear a dress or whatever, so be it. What they're doing here (and in other cases, with kids) is making permanent a problem or behavioral thing that is probably otherwise very temporary.

Ultimately, this boils down to the parents' narcissism and has nothing to do with the child.

The phenomenon of a "boy in a girl's body" does actually exist, as in there are actual cases where children are born with part or all of both sets of genitals, and doctors and parents actually literally decide which sex the child is going to be. I actually know a person who is like this, and felt they should have gone the other way and in adult life, well, did. I can't say I blame the person, I can only imagine how confused they must feel.

BUT.. Actual hermaphroditism and the other conditions that can cause an ACTUAL separation of "biological gender" from physical gender are extremely rare and mostly have nothing to do with the modern PC concept of your biological gender, which pretty much translates to "which sex I want to have sex with" rather than anything biological.

But that would all be moot if children weren't so sexualized by "sex ed" classes in primary school that at 9 years old instead of thinking girls are gross and playing Ninja Turtles they're already treated as aware enough of what sexuality is to feel they can determine "biological gender."

Seriously, the boy thinks he's a girl, so what, let him be a sissy boy till he grows up enough that it would actually make a difference either way. It specifically says in the article that the other students don't give a f*** either way if he thinks he should be a boy or a girl; the ones making a song and dance about it are his parents and the school. I'm only 25 and I'm already not surprised that education professionals can't act as maturely as primary school children, how sad.

FFS children don't even have genuine sexual urges until puberty which is at least 5 years away from this kid, who's to say his young brain isn't suffering a hormone imbalance from the vegan diet his moonbat parents probably feed him and when he turns 14 he's going to feel all man?

And it's ironic how arbitrary gender roles are to moonbats when homosexuality is supposedly not a choice but a biological imperative and something to be celebrated.

People who think they are women in a mans body or man in a womans body are mentally ill and should be treated a such. Enough of this crap. Remember that guy who died while being penetrated by a full size horse? Him too - dead mentally ill kook. Gays are mentally ill too - homosexuality is abnormal - but these days mental illness has been relabeled "alternate lifestyle choice". This isnt political correct but I dont give a flying frak about that. People who are mentally ill need to be treated, not pandered to.

I am amazed and ashamed of the bigotry and intentionally hateful opinions expressed in this blog.
Could you pause for a moment and consider that there are things in this world that you do not or are unable to understand?
There is no shame in admitting that.
What is a crime is for potentially intelligent, productive members of society to be intentionally ignorant.
To use this blog as a launching pad to harm a child is terrible.
You do not need to bring the wraith of mankind upon yourself just to attract attention.
You can ask god for forgiveness and Jesus will come into your life and help you to understand the life of a child is more important than the attention you receive from slandering and hating.

I am amazed and ashamed of the bigotry and intentionally hateful opinions expressed in this blog.
Could you pause for a moment and consider that there are things in this world that you do not or are unable to understand?
There is no shame in admitting that.
What is a crime is for potentially intelligent, productive members of society to be intentionally ignorant.
To use this blog as a launching pad to harm a child is terrible.
You do not need to bring the wraith of mankind upon yourself just to attract attention.
You can ask god for forgiveness and Jesus will come into your life and help you to understand the life of a child is more important than the attention you receive from slandering and hating.

This is not about sex, it is about gender identity. The child's parents are not making a big issue, they wanted to do what was best for their child. The child's friends (who are and always have been, girls) have no issues.

The ironic thing is that if this were a case where a girl wanted to act and dress as a boy, and be treated as a boy, we would not bat an eye. We would call her a "Tom Boy" (a rather non-offensive term). The morons in society would not be calling her mentally unstable. Most people would brush it off as a phase that she would grow out of. Perhaps many do, but who knows how many "Tom Boys" are actually boys trapped in girls' bodies. They are given a chance to thrive as a male without public scrutiny. If a biological male wishes to live as the gender that she was meant to be and dress and act like a girl, then society calls them fags, sissies, homos, or queer.

To use this blog as a launching pad to harm a child is terrible.

Some of us think indulging mental illness is terrible. Genital mutilation is terrible. The introduction of toxic chemicals to alter a human's body is terrible. Sentencing someone to a life as a freak is terrible.

But to a dingbat lib, these things are the essence of "compassion."

These parents are the ones harming this poor mentally ill child - it will have to go thru life as a freak. This child needs a psychiatrist and medication not girls clothes and a sex change operation.

When you are talking about a child, they are not "men or women" claiming to be the other. I think this is so heart breaking for parents. I have wondered many times how I might of handled it if my son had been born with both a penis and a vagina and reproductive organs. Many parents face this. On conclusion I reached a long time ago, and I fully agree with Ian on the subject, parents don't have the right to make decisions for children. Children should be allowed to grow and reach puberty in whatever mode/role they feel comfortable with. When their hormones kick into gear, they will know what feels natural for them, and that is how it should be. I think it is tragic that many parents and doctors encourage the making of the decision for the child in infancy. Maybe it is ego that the parents are embarassed and don't want to see their child labelled a freak. I don't know, but I admire the parent who is courageous enough to "wait it out" and let time, nature and the child decide the outcome for themselves. I think that along with prayer would be my course.
And for the record, I do not agree with homosexual/lesbian lifestyles and believe it is a choice made for whatever reason or dysfunction, and I am not a homophobe! I am simply not a fan of what I consider to be a sick and unnatural lifestyle, especially when so many living it want to push it on their society! Just for the record.

See, here's what libs do... they look at some poor, confused, dysfunctional individual and they say, "Oh, look! How cute! And look how accepting and cool I am for embracing it!"

And what totally blows by these stupid liberals is how abjectly miserable these dysfunctional people are. I've known a few. Libs may think confused and dysfunctional people are entertaining, and that enabling their dysfunction is compassionate, but what they are actually doing is sentencing them to a life of misery, unsatisfactory and often abusive relationships, drug and alcohol addiction, and all the other stuff that goes with social dysfunction.

To use this blog as a launching pad to harm a child is terrible.

Kelli- the discussion about this is a question of what approach is most harmful. Your mind is clearly settled around a belief system regarding a biological basis for gender dysphoria, which it's your right to believe. And as I've said above, I think the logical conclusion is that at least some cases are the result of "wrong brain wiring" i.e. biological in nature. But that does not mean that all cases are, and if they are not (and there are good reasons to believe that) then presuming that every child who thinks they are the wrong gender is transexual is going to cause a great deal of harm.

There is no, none, zilch, zero understanding of the mechanism for this purported condition. There is thus no way for doctors to reliably diagnose it. If a scan could show the "male/female brain organ" and clearly show that it's wrong, that would be great. But we can't do that. The risk of error is thus enormous, and as I said above there has been so much harm in the past caused by medicine believing they have answers when they don't, especially as regards psychology.

In other words, people like those on this blog who oppose the social construct of "transgender identity" are trying to prevent harm to children.

As has been said above, transexuality and homosexuality are entirely different things; and that's why it's so ludicrous to lump them together for political purposes into "LBGT". What's that "T" doing on the end there?

Gayness is lifestyle. A "straight" person can change to a "gay" person just by changing their actions. I've known many cases of this, from straight men who have become gay in middle age, to a middle aged man my sister went out with (big age gap) who'd been gay for most of his adult life then decided he never had been and he'd been influenced by the very gay atmosphere in theatre (he was an actor). But if somebody does change their mind about sexuality; well, they still have the same body, they're still the same person just doing different things now.

But if you've surgically altered somebody and sexually disabled them well, it's too late. There's no going back. Sexuality is fluid. Biology is not.

Here's Camille Paglia talking about her childhood and dislike of the traditional "little girl" role imposed on her by society:-

You know, I'm really happy there wasn't all this talk about sex changes back then, since I probably would have gotten this fantasy that I was a man born wrongly in a woman's body, and I think I might very well have become obsessed with the idea of a sex change, which would have been a terrible mistake.

That's a warning we should heed.

Oh, also, from looking at your blog- I think Medea Benjamin, the lifelong communist agitator and revolutionary, can withstand a little "bullying and intimidation" from a TV reporter.

Ah! "Gender Assignment" the last psychiatric disorder cured by surgery, it works for sure -- just ask all of the depressed people that used to be lobotomized --they were cut to happiness!

some people here seem to know alot about Transgender people. have any of you ever set your hate aside long enough talk to one? no its much to easy to call them "freaks" and say they are in need of "fixing". Im sure this child understands the problems that come along with being trans, but is it her that has a problem or the ones pointing fingers calling them freaks? no lets force this child into living the way you think they should along with all the more harmful drugs, just to make you feel more comfortable. thats all that counts right you feeling more comfortable?
guess what it comes down to is what differance does it make in your little box of life? if you always keep the box closed you'll never see the beauty of the outside. Im thankful for knowing the trans people I know, they are some of the most caring and loving people with the strength to live life for who they are with all hate and violance they face every day from people that call them freaks, keep them unemployed/homeless because they dont fit nicely into some pigon hole male and female. where does it stop?

^--- It's a man, baby

^--- loser baby

thats right "Debra" tell us your fweeeeelings.

Debra, making my point perfectly that libs enable dysfunction because it makes them feel good about themselves.

truth hurts dont it? go back to reading your bible and save yourself from the icky tranny people.
if Im a male, then that would be news to my son, I give birth to 20 years ago :P

I'll be glad to go back to reading my Bible. Why don't you pick up a book on spelling, grammar, and punctuation? Or, maybe just read something other than left-wing blogs. You know, like books, where words are all spelled out right and proper like.

I wonder how many of the bloggers on here are actually parents themselves...and if they are, how would they handle the situation if it was their child. Perhaps they would ignore the emotional strain the child is feeling, telling themselves that it is a "phase" and they will grow out of it. Perhaps they would take the child to a therapist or psychiatrist in hopes that the child could be forced to be someone he is not (or drugged so that he could not make his own choices). Perhaps if the therapist suggests to you the parent that your child deeply feels the way he does, you could get a second, a third, a fourth opinion. Perhaps your child becomes withdrawn and feels stifled because you don't want to be thought of as raising a freak of nature. Perhaps your child senses that you see him as a freak...that you cannot accept him for who he is. Perhaps his depression increases as he no longer wants to disappoint you. Perhaps you get your wish and he remains a boy. You can smile that you were right in your decision as you watch your son's coffin get lowered into the ground. I would hope that then you would realize too late that you should have listened.

So unless you are or have been a parent...and a parent whose child has had any sort of struggle (physical or emotional) in life, you have no idea what these parents go through. In other words, shut the f*** up!!!

Debra, making my point perfectly that libs enable dysfunction because it makes them feel good about themselves.

what?!? hello is there anyone in ther.......

really theres a bible somewhere calling for you. hurry along save yourselfs. we all know "god" doesnt make mistakes

Deleted my post, well just to say it again - I'm trans and you would never know. think of that the next time you meet a new girl.

I give birth to 20 years ago :P
So if your child came to you, and said they thought they should have been born a Sealion you'd go and have their limbs amputated, and changed into flippers?
See, thats why you liberal twatwaffles are almost a self-parody?

Oh yah, God is a women - And she's lesbian, ask Mary.

I think that xantl's last moronic comment is a good argument for mandatory sterilization. I would hope that his/her shallow and idiotic views would die with his/her generation.

Chris, when you getting measured up for your mangina?

I do want to thank the tranny-trolls for coming over today. Their self-righteous posturing, mindless repetition of "sensitive" talking points, and utter lack of grammatical skills never fail to amuse.

So if your child came to you, and said they thought they should have been born a Sealion you'd go and have their limbs amputated, and changed into flippers?

To do anything less would be uncompassionate. Likewise, if your child is anorexic, forcing her to eat properly would be so oppressive, conformist, and intolerant. Life is so much more beautiful when we let teenage girls starve themselves to death! And Annas are so nice, and gentle, and loving! Who are you intolerant barbarians not to honor their lifestyle choices?

Well the big difference V the K is that transitioning for a transsexual person creates life for that individual, rather then how not eating would take it away for someone who is anorexic.

xantl: I rest my case

V the K: no one died from being a transgender. The sealion (btw, it should not be capitalized) example is so stupid that it is not even funny. Do either of you have children, and if so, did they ever have any physical or emotional hardships (aside from being your offspring, I mean)?

The only way someone dies from being transgender is when the transphobia seen from some of the people here leads them to commit murder. But at least they read the bible right!

I've adopted two special needs foster kids, not that it's any of your business. And after the emotional hardships they were put through, they are grateful for the structure and stability of the home environment I have provided for them.

I've seen both sides of the world... the LGBT lifestyle and the mainstream, church-going lifestyle. The churchies are a lot happier, healthier, well-adjusted people.

Chris,
An opinion is a form of free speech. Although your "shut the fuck up" quote doesn't surprise me. I'll give you libtards one thing, you definately stick to one point and that would be "if you don't sgree with me then you aren't allowed an opinion". Here I tought you libtards were so openminded.

We learn from you Democrats; when NATO asked you to step down, you go ahead and bomb the F*** out of everything. Way to go Bush!

Evidently so stupid, you cannot even begin to give a rational reason why it is a false comparison? Tell me why a nine year old child saying he wants to be a girl, should have their "gender identity" changed? What makes that decision more valid at that age than wanting to be an astronaut, or a lion tamer?

If your child thought he was Nelson, would you tuck his arm into his jacket and tell him you believed him?
If your child was a manic depressive, would you cut a smile in his face?
Explain to me why surgery is a valid solution, for a mental illness? why is hormone medicine to make them the opposite sex, more valid that treatment for a mental disease?

But, what would you do if one of them said to you that they had always felt different...like they were not the gender that they physically appear to be? Would you force them to be someone they weren't? Would you call a priest to perform an exorcism? What if one of your children is suppressing the fact that he or she is truly homosexual (you don't know their full genetic make-up, since you cannot necessarily check their biological family history)? What if, some day one of them decided to come out of the closet. Would you turn them away or threaten to cut them out of the will unless they "give up the nonsense?

The woman interviewed in the paper said that her daughter was now living as a well adjusted teenager who auditioned for a lead in the play. Who is to say what is healthy and well-adjusted for everyone?

Oh, and this is not about homosexuality. It is about gender identity.

And who says that transgenders or homosexuals do not go to church? Many do...perhaps to pray for the bigots of the world who stand behind their bibles professing that transgenders and homosexuals are sinners. First, nowhere in the bible does it say that homosexuality is a sin. Yes it refers to man taking a woman for his wife, but that is because that was and is the mainstream. But it never says that if you are a homosexual, you are a sinner and will rot in hell.

The bible does say that Jesus loves all of mankind, unconditionally. So for you hypocritical bible-thumpers: your hate for homosexuals and transgenders, and your lack of compassion for the parents of that child smacks against everything that Jesus has taught and stands for....making YOU the sinners. Put down your stones!!!

Chris, I know this will come as a *shock* to you, but nine year olds are not capable of making adult decisions. Once they're adults, they can be whatever they choose to be. But a young child has to be brought up with the concepts of cultural norms of behavior. If they're taught that anything goes, and that whatever whim they want to indulge, adults will accommodate them, it's no surprise that they grow up self-centered and dysfunctional.

I know lefties have a tough time distinguishing between childhood and adulthood, but this is positively ridiculous.

^-- that seals the deal for me.
Chris is one of those compassionate liberals, who would rather nurture a delusion / dysfunction than raise a normal, well adjusted child.

I am all for free speech...and nonparents can have their opinions, but they do not have full understanding about what it is like to be a parent and to raise kids.

Also, they are not talking about doing surgery on that 9 year old. She just wants to be treated like a girl, dress like a girl, and act like a girl. She has always played with the girls in her school and they accept her for who she really is.

Dreams of a future occupation are not a good comparison to something that is biological and emotional.

If it were a girl who wanted to act like, dress like, and be treated like a boy....would you all care and call her a deviant? No, you would call her a tomboy

Correction xantl, to Chris, normal and well-adjusted *is* dysfunctional. Gender-confused, emotionally unstable people, ideally with substance abuse problems, are what society should celebrate.

But, what would you do if one of them said to you that they had always felt different...like they were not the gender that they physically appear to be? Would you force them to be someone they weren't?

A child who believes they are the wrong sex may have a developmental problem, or a psychological one. Before you can treat it, you need to know which it is. That really matters. Don't you care?

Chris, when my oldest son was 9 he thought he was gay or bisexual... he's now 22, married, in the Army and very grateful that he was allowed to go through puberty before determining the answer to that question. He thought at that age because he enjoyed the company of little girls more than little boys and liked to cook he was more like a girl... he hit 13 or so and miracle of miracles... he figured out WHY he liked girls so much! If we had let him dress like a girl, act like a girl and do what these parents are doing... he'd be a miserable young man right now. People become trapped by "learned behaviors" from their childhood. You people on the extreme side of every issue are into over reacting and not listening to common sense.

You get it, HAM. It's nice to see someone does. Yes, kids play games. Healthy parents understand that. I can't see any healthy outcome to neurotic parents getting an entire school system on-board with indulging their nine-year-old's notion that he's gender-bent.

I never shamed my son for sharing his feelings about it either, I simply used a little "common sense logic", indulged his desire to learn how to cook, and just helped him "wait it out".
The idea of cementing a child's fate through "conditioning on a monumental scale" like that is just INSANE. Children are better able to "figure out WHO they are" when they are no longer CHILDREN and can decide for themselves. The reason they have parents in the first place is because they are not emotionally equipped to BE ADULTS, because they ARE CHILDREN.
Moonbats miss the boat on that little fact.

its just something you could never understand without being trans yourself. how could my feeling of who I was be wrong, at ago 5. played with girls growing up. until my loving father decided he was going to beat the sissy boy out me, he did for awhile after many beatings. so I put up this fake "boy" image. which was inpossible for me to live up too, didnt break a 100lbs until 11th grade. from age 8 to 13 tried 3 times to take my life. why? cause my dad seem to know what was best for me? be truthful glad he didnt know I thought of myself as a girl. an image I couldnt look at in mirror, the hate and guilt. there are no pictures of me from age 6 to 28 other than for drivers license, pretty sad to hate yourself so much. I met my wife at 23 married at 26, came out to her at 28. my life changed from that point on, she accepted me for the true me. today Im 41 full time pre-op with no plans for more. today I yell out I LOVE MYSELF theres more pictures of me then I could count.
thinking back of all the energy I wasted on hating myself, fighting off bully's in school and adult bully's because I didnt fit in. where could I be now if I was allowed to be who I wanted to be at 6?
too many people here think they know what is best for this child, truth is you know nothing about this kid other than what the news puts out and what your beliefs are.

Cheese, did someone link to here from the "stereotypical tales of victimhood" blog or something?

so glad me being mistreated growing up is so "stereotypical tales of victimhood" thank you so much for says this. you just proved you know nothing on this subject other than your beliefs.

today I yell out I LOVE MYSELF
Nice normal behavior there. I think you'll find most people don't have to convince themselves by yelling it at themselves.

tran4life-

Here's the problem, and it's a significant one. Cause and effect. A reasonable person may ask, did you feel different because of being biologically transexual, or did a psychological syndrome develop for some other reason- a reaction against an aggressive home environment with a father expecting you to be things you weren't? I'm not saying that this is the answer, but it's not implausible.

I remember reading this online book a while ago about "love shyness"- a largely unrecognised (beyond ridicule) syndrome of men who are incapable of forming relationships with women; the stereotypical loser living in his mom's basement who never has a girlfriend and watches too much Star Trek, heh. That pointed out how (it's an American book), America has a strong cult of maleness and fathers expect their sons to display certain male traits e.g. playing sports etc. For the lad who isn't like that, who is by nature a loner, quiet, not sporty, that's a lot of presssure. That's just one example, but it can be very difficult for kids whose personalities aren't stereotypical if their parents expect that of them. The boy who likes cooking and the company of girls (but doesn't have an understanding mom like H.A.M.) or the girl who hates frocks and dolls, kind of thing.

That may well convince the developing child that they are fundamentally "different" rather than merely having a less usual or desired personality type. The book I mentioned above basically postulated that boys who aren't stereotypically "boyish" (not "sissies", but rather nerdy loners who prefer computers to football) end up becoming outsiders because they aren't participating in male peer groups and the social pressure to participate in those male activities makes them react against them instead. Following a vaguely similar line of reasoning, it may be that some "gender outsiders" under all this pressure develop the idea that their feelings of isolation from their own sex means they must "really" be one of the other sex.

Psychology is difficult, and nobody really understands how the mind works, although everyone has a theory. Beliefs, once developed, can be profound, even if they have no basis in reality. I can show you the billions of followers of religions worldwide who are all convinced, beyond doubt, that what they believe is certainly true, even though every one of those belief systems is outnumbered by disbelievers and entirely lacking in any physical evidence. I can point you at message boards for "Furries" who are convinced that they are really animals trapped in human bodies. I saw a woman on TV with a brain injury who was convinced that her arm was not her own, even though it was quite clearly attached to her body. This may sound trivialising, I'm sorry about that, but the central point is that belief isn't proof of anything.

The central issue here from a scientific point of view has to be understanding *why* a person believes they are the opposite sex before you can make any judgement regarding what the best course of action is. There's no understanding of that at all so far. Transexuals are almost certainly a mix of "real" transexuals with a developmental error and "psychological" transexuals who are, to put it bluntly, just deluded. How do you separate the two, especially in a hysterical climate of political activism?

I'm also intrigued by why a woman trapped in a man's body would fall in love with, and marry, a woman, and why she'd stay pre-op. Don't transexuals feel disgust at the wrongness of the body they're in? What could be more wrong with a woman's body than having a penis?

So, being able to shout "I love myself" proves you're in good mental health? Welcome to the cult of self-esteem.

v the k and anyone else
where does your knowlegde of tran people come from?
have you ever met a trans person?
bet you have and didnt know it. even if you havnt met one dressed theres still the ones in the closet.
do you really think they do SRS or GRS to 9 year old? no they offer the child the option to take a pill to stop puberty until they are old enough to decide one way or the other. the pill can be stop at any point and body will start puberty without il effect to the child. the T in male bodies do trouble things to trans child.

we are adult's here right? answer the questions without the lib BS

The real problem with these confused gender types is that they do NOT like themselves. So they invent themselves a new "me" to hide behind and just get through life.

When I was little I liked to eat with my left hand. But my mother kept taking the spoon and putting it in my right hand! When I went to school I saw that there was a kid who used his left hand to eat and use crayons. Hmmmmm When I got to highschool I met a kid who used his left hand for writing but his right hand for eating. Hmmmm Finally, when I got to college, I met a guy who could use BOTH hands equally well in everything he did. They had a name for him. They called him "ambidextrous".

I began to wonder what I really was. Was I left-handed? Right-handed? Or...something else? Hmmmmmmmmm

So you see, all my life I have struggled with dexterity gender identity. All because my mother made me eat with my right hand. Oh why couldn't she just leave me alone?!

EUSSR
nice when adult's talk like adult's and not little childern.
great reply by the way. even if I may not agree with all you said.
there all levels of transsexual from ones that takes nothing but live part/full time to the ones that go all the way. I choose not too I have the body of a girl minus the lower parts. Im happy, my lovely wife is happy. we are soul-mates and lovers. will I go all the way one day? no. now if I had the option at 18 hell yes.

My knowledge of trannies comes from both those I've known and from what I've observed of LGBT culture.

It's unbelievable to me that you advocate dosing the body of a developing child with dangerous hormones. The unnecessary surgical and chemical mutilation of a human body should be offensive. Especially the body of a child. The first thing I did with each of my foster sons was ween them off medications.

IMHO, if these transgendered freaks had been taught and counseled to love and appreciate the sexual identity they were born with, they would have had happier lives. Society is far too quick to reach for the knife or the pill.

Maybe someday they'll have a genetic test for detecting transgendered tendencies in utero, at which point the parents can simply abort. No one on the compassionate left could oppose that. It's choice, right?

Rosie said
The real problem with these confused gender types is that they do NOT like themselves. So they invent themselves a new "me" to hide behind and just get through life.

the only hiding I or any other transgendered person has done was from hateful people. and theres no new me its just my true self showing through. just keep thinking "god" doesnt make mistakes sorry you just sound too much like a bible believer. how can you believe in a "god" that hates so many people? and Im confused lol

I mean, at worst, they would have turned out like John Edwards.

xantl
out of what I said thats all you calling me on?
guess you missed the whole point I love myself after so many years of hating who I was "male" seem better to love thy self right? but hold on while I check my handy bible

v th k
whats next? homosexuals childern missing a finger where do you stop at?
show me where they are giving female hormones to 9 year old. they may offer the child the option to take a pill that stops puberty until they are old enough to decide for themself's. this pill has been used on kids for one reason or another to stop puberty until they turn 18. still show you know very little about trans people

Here we go throwing out the "Bible" comments again. What is it with you shemales, and associating everyones negative opinion of your lifestyle with the "Bible"?

If anything, I would have thought the "Bible" would be to you, like garlic is to Dracula, what with the notions of sin, self-responsibility and morality. Good job you liberals killed God lulz.

oh no there the liberal BS
are you a bible believer? do you really believe one person or entity created everything? earth has been here 30 billions years give or take afew million years. life on this planet maybe 500 million years. just how long do you think we humans have been here? afew hundard thousand not likely.
only childern resort to name calling. talk like adult and you can stay

Sorry, my bad for assuming a guy packing a sausage, and a set of tits is a Liberal and not a card carrying Conservative.

No hatred here, babe. Your perception is bad.

God makes people with two heads and one body. They are happy as they are. They say so. I heard them. No one throws stones at them and they don't wallow in self-pity. Why should they. There is nothing "wrong" with them. They are just different.

Appears to me that the bigotry and hatred is within YOU, not without.

Peace.

Appears to me that the bigotry and hatred is within YOU, not without

where have I said anything long the lines of bigotry and hatred? I know cause I dont believe in "god". I dont hate anyone I may not like what you stand for and question your beliefs in a book. but hate sorry no
and you talk about hatred and bigotry just look at afew replys attacking the lonely tranny
I have been nothing but civil guess some people wont growup pass the school yard bully stage.

I rest my case.

And I want my Peace returned.

Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

t4l, if you're trying to present yourself as the picture of a happy, well-adjusted tranny... you're failing.

rest your case? ok and most here think Im confused.
why is everyone so quiet?
I know cause I wont get mad. wont resort to name calling. 99.9% of us are not the jerry springer trannys. we live our life in peace and we dont deserve to be treated like less then human.

when an adult replys to anything Ive posted I will reply otherwise I done

It's obvious that any argument we attempt to make will be immediately swept aside by those who have some emotional stake in the case. When H.A.M. made a perfectly wonderful point by telling her story of her son's childhood beliefs, those who would argue passionately for the child's transsexual rights didn't even acknowledge it. Obviously we're seeing what happens when you argue with the LGBT community: you get yelled at, your points get ignored, and eventually you'll be accused of being a hate-filled Bible-thumper.

Thulsa --- you forgot that anyone who doesn't unquestioningly accept LGBT propaganda as gospel truth is ipso facto not an "adult." (Even when the person setting himself up as the arbiter of maturity has difficulty with spelling, punctuation, capitalization, and elementary geo-science.)

I have a friend who thinks one of her (barely pubescent) sons is gay because he's artistic, bookish, and doesn't display a raging hormonal interest in girls. I worry that, in her rush to show unconditional acceptance of him, she'll just throw a bunch of ideas at him that he's not capable of processing at this point in life. H.A.M.'s story about her son is instructive, and worth remembering.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to reassemble my AK-47 and rush off to Bible study. I do relish the thought that, in some small way, I'm a moonbat's worst nightmare...

Why don't you people who object let others live their life? Why does everything have to be about yourself and how it affects you?
When in reality, a transgender person does not affect your life in any way? You obviously don't care about the child so why rant about something you don't understand, will never have to deal with, and make judgements that are not yours.
Opinions are one thing, but you carry on like you will be forced to become a woman/man, there is no logic in what you're arguing about. It is not about a law that will make all boys girls or visaversa!

So much ignorance, so little time....

First, please don't call me a Liberal. I am, but in Australia, where I live, that means someone on the right. Look it up if you don't believe me.

Second, I transitioned from a male appearance to a female one. Yet technically, I'm not Transsexual, but Intersexed. Born neither 100% male nor 100% female. In 1985, I was diagnosed using the technology of the time as a mildly Intersexed male. In 2005, using 21st century technology, I was diagnosed as a severely Intersexed female. I started hormone treatment shortly thereafter to aid the natural change that caused me to have the tests in the first place.

It's a medical issue, not a political one. My unusual situation does give me a good personal perspective on the issue though.

Third, evidence. Evidence, Facts, are good. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but no-one is entitled to their own facts.

Zhou J.-N, Hofman M.A, Gooren L.J, Swaab D.F (1997) A Sex Difference in the Human Brain and its Relation to Transsexuality. (PDF at http://www.harrybenjaminsyndrome-info.org/pdf/BSTc.pdf)

Kruijver F.P.M, Zhou J.-N, Pool C.W., Swaab D.F. (2000) Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus (PDF at http://www.harrybenjaminsyndrome-info.org/pdf/brainsex1.pdf)

Male and Female brains differ, both on the coarse scale (BSTc layer of the hypothalamus) and fine scale (number of neurons - brain cells - in each structure). Autopsies on transsexual women, that is, women with mostly male bodies, have shown they have female pattern brains.

Note that gay men have male pattern brains though.

Yes, when they say "I'm a woman trapped in a male body", they're literally correct. A simplification, but correct.

From ArzteZeitung, 2007

Radiologists can now confirm what transsexuals report - that they feel “trapped in the wrong body” - on the basis of the activation of the brain when presented with erotic stimuli. There is obviously a biological correlation with the subjective feelings."

Now while we're on the subject of diagnosis, those who say "oh these people are just crazy, psychotic" have no idea what is involved with transition, or how Transsexuality is diagnosed.

First, they have to see a shrink. After a minimum of 3 months of observation and tests to make sure they're not crazy, they may be authorised to start hormonal treatment. It could take longer, possibly much longer, or they could be refused entirely. Transsexual people tend to have similar life stories, they usually know there's something wrong by age 7. Many are physically Intersexed in minor ways too, if the brain is cross-gendered in the womb, odds are increased that other bits are too. Exposure of the mother to the drug DES in the first trimester is a dead giveaway, one in 5 genetically male babies born to such mothers end up a transsexual women.

The hormonal treatment will result in impotence, and that weeds out the fetishists pretty quickly. It's reversible if they discontinue. In some women, it can result in acquiring a libido though, the previously male hormones can suppress that in transsexual women.

Then, after a while, they have to start at least 1 year of living in the target gender role. This can cause all sorts of problems if they look like a "man in a dress", and again weeds out those whose distress isn't acute, who don't have to "transition or die". They may get beaten up some, maybe arrested, but that's what they have to endure.

THEN... they have to see ANOTHER shrink. A post-doctoral specialist, who will review the facts, do yet more tests, and stake his or her professional reputation that they aren't just crazy. They need two separate letters of authorisation, one from the shrink that's been monitoring them for over a year, often several years, and another by this specialist, in order to qualify.

I say "at least" a year of living in the target gender role. It can take many years, the shrinks have to be absolutely sure, and they will make them wait until they are.

All of this is in the "standards of care", the SOC, put out by specialists in the area. Just like similar SOCs for diabetes, heart disease and so on, if they don't follow it, they're open to a malpractice suit.

And at the end of it... a guy will no longer feel like a eunuch with his genitalia cut off. Family will ask why "she" got a mastectomy to get rid of her tits, and he'll answer that guys like a 36D on their girlfriends, not on themselves. But he will be able to grow a mustache or beard, he'll be able to chew the fat with the other guys after work, and no-one will know that when he was young, he used to be a boy in a girl body.

That could have happened to any man here. 1 in 10,000 men are in that situation. I'm told it sucks, and considering how awful it was to have the mind of a lesbian cheerleader in the body of a quarterback, I can believe it.

Did I mention that it's not covered by either Medicare or any other health insurance? And that the cost is anywhere between $20,000 for a pubescent MtoF to $120,000 for an FtoM? Finding the spare $50,000 (on average) can be a bit difficult if you're divorced, looking like a "man in a dress" so are unemployable, etc.

So unless you are or have been a parent...and a parent whose child has had any sort of struggle (physical or emotional) in life, you have no idea what these parents go through. In other words, shut the f*** up!!!

Posted by: Chris at May 6, 2008 10:24 AM
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You forgot to add the caveat that by "any sort of physical or emotional struggle" you mean something to do with sex that allows liberals to wallow in vicarious victimhood and poke the conservative establishment in the eye, rather than minor things like cancer or osteoparosis genesis.

"I think that xantl's last moronic comment is a good argument for mandatory sterilization. I would hope that his/her shallow and idiotic views would die with his/her generation.

Posted by: Chris at May 6, 2008 10:36 AM"

Wow, what with all the hatred here from those bigoted conservatives, I'm glad Chris is here with his progressive wisdom to show us what love and respect for others with differing opinions is. Remember guys, there is no better way to respect another's views by saying you'd like to sterilize them.

Remember, having a different opinion on whether or not someone is a girl trapped in a boy's body, bigoted and hateful.

Wanting mandatory sterilization of those with other opinions, open minded and tolerant.

Thus endeth today's lesson in liberal psychosis.
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Posted by: Debra at May 6, 2008 9:55 AM

"some people here seem to know alot about Transgender people. have any of you ever set your hate aside long enough talk to one?"
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Who says conservatives hate "trans gender" people? I think it's safe to say most conservatives don't care what someone thinks of their own gender, as long as they aren't making a big deal out of it and diverting educational resources to the cause of making a big song and dance out of it, rather than teaching students something like, I dunno, how to spell properly.

Is that more, or less, hateful than saying someone should be forcibly sterilized for disagreeing?
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no its much to easy to call them "freaks" and say they are in need of "fixing". Im sure this child understands the problems that come along with being trans, but is it her that has a problem or the ones pointing fingers calling them freaks?
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No-one's pointing the finger at the child. No-one hates the child, or blames him/her/it/whatever. It's the fact that liberal moonbat ideology is apparently now so powerful that it's necessary to divert educational resources away from, I dunno, education, and focus on stupid victimhood issues that don't even matter one way or the other.

Oh, and we're also pointing the finger at the parents for their role in enabling a *9 year old child* to think he is able to determine his own biological gender and should be doing something about it.
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no lets force this child into living the way you think they should along with all the more harmful drugs, just to make you feel more comfortable.
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Well that's interesting, because that's pretty much what the psychiatrist in the article said, he encourages young children with these types of "issues" to at least wait until puberty and then see if they still feel like they need to be doing something about it.
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thats all that counts right you feeling more comfortable?
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I guess *you* and your ilk feeling more comfortable about your role as humanitarian crusaders is important enough that it's not a problem to potentially disrupt the education of all the other children in the class, who don't have the same problem, by creating a massive diversionary issue and forcing it into their faces?
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guess what it comes down to is what differance does it make in your little box of life? if you always keep the box closed you'll never see the beauty of the outside.
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I guess only liberals can see the beauty in the concept of slicing a child's penis in half and stuffing it up his pelvis, and forcing all his classmates at school to acknowledge how big a deal it all is, their comfort or education be damned.
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Im thankful for knowing the trans people I know, they are some of the most caring and loving people with the strength to live life for who they are with all hate and violance they face every day from people that call them freaks,
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Wait, now moderate verbal abuse constitutes violence? Quick contact the Human Rights Commission and have them arrest every single boss I've ever had, and all those mean kids at my primary school too!
Is being called a "freak" (N: a person or animal that is markedly unusual) worse than being told that you should be sterilized? If not, then I claim this thread as evidence that people with conservative political views face discrimination and yes, even violence, for expressing themselves in public. I'm going to lobby the board of education to include "conservative studies" as mandatory for school children ages 4 and up, and I think we need to teach pre schoolers how to operate a polling booth and vote Republican and read the Bible.
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keep them unemployed/homeless because they dont fit nicely into some pigon hole male and female. where does it stop?
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Mm hmm. Can we have a moment's silence for all the unemployed, homeless transgender people who are forced to roam the bizarre wasteland of Debra's imagination.

You see, Debra and Chris, people like you are actually the main objection conservatives have to the "victim" classes you so fervently claim to espouse. Most conservatives disagree with homosexuality, homosexual marriage, and whatever else we see as sexual deviancy. But those are *our* values, and we're also mostly "don't-ask-don't-tell" types who could honestly care less if someone engages in homosexual sex in their own privacy. It's really their business, we don't see why we should have to approve of it for them to find happiness in it.

It's when we have to hear about it endlessly, have it celebrated, have laws passed that we think threaten the traditional structure of family that we think best supports healthy development of children, and basically just have the whole entire thing blown up into a giant larger-than-life mosaic of victimhood and celebration of what is really, when you get down to it, a choice to cohabit with the same sex, just as we've chosen to cohabit with the opposite sex, that it becomes a big deal - because you made it one.

Like I said, I don't see that we should have to approve of GLBTH BLT MDMA ABCDEFGH activity or whatever you're calling it now, for those who engage in it to derive from it the happiness it supposedly gives them, and which they supposedly can't get anywhere else. And I don't see why it should have to be pushed into our faces and into the public conciousness so prominently in order for those who supposedly are biologically of the opposite gender to what they are physically, to derive from their acts the happiness they are supposedly seeking. Unless, of course, the whole thing is really as much about narcissism and exhibitionism as it is about true love, but then saying that would be heresy, wouldn't it?

mandible claw - I agree with much of what you say, but not all of it. Given that only about 1 in 3000 people are Transsexual or severely Intersexed, the fact that they were lynched or murdered at a rate of 1 per fortnight in the first 2 months of 2008 was a bit of a problem. Even at the worst periods of the KKK in the 1920s, 6000 blacks weren't lynched per month.

Most people don't realise that Intersexed people exist, and when they do see someone that doesn't match the standard expected gender appearance either way, especially if it's near a kindergarten, well, you can see where I'm going. If we say nothing, we get persecuted out of pardonable ignorance, and if we insist that we exist, then we're narcissistic.

I'd welcome your solution to this conundrum. I'm not proud of my condition, nor am I ashamed of it. Embarassed, yes. And sick of the legal battles I have to go through when it comes to simple things like getting a passport, or having my legally valid marriage of 27 years recognised.

I'll quote from a court case :

Urging the United States Supreme Court to tackle the issue in 2000, lawyers for Christie Lee Littleton, a Texas male-to-female transsexual suing her husband's doctors for wrongful death, noted the confused landscape: "Taking this situation to its logical conclusion, Mrs. Littleton, while in San Antonio, Texas, is a male and has a void marriage; as she travels to Houston, Texas, and enters federal property, she is female and a widow; upon traveling to Kentucky she is female and a widow; but, upon entering Ohio, she is once again male and prohibited from marriage; entering Connecticut, she is again female and may marry; if her travel takes her north to Vermont, she is male and may marry a female; if instead she travels south to New Jersey, she may marry a male."

And a coronial report :

December 1997. After an appearance in a Local Court, bail was refused and Ms M. was remanded in custody. Late on 22 December she was transported to a remand and reception centre where that night and into the morning of December 23 she underwent induction assessment. She was identified as transgender by the welfare officer and it was determined she should go into a “protection” wing. Having spent December 24 in court Ms M. spent December 25 and 26 in “strict protection”. During this time she was brutally raped at least twice during daylight hours. The attacks were so vicious that two other prisoners took the unusual step of reporting the incidents and giving sworn evidence. On December 27 Ms M. was found dead in her cell hanging by a shoelace.

Eyewitness Catherine Poole told investigators that Hunter was conscious and "starting to complain of pain" when the rescuers arrived.

"[T]he ambulance person that was treating [Hunter] said to her that 'Everything is going to be all right, honey,'" Poole continued. "At that point, she started to urinate on herself. The ambulance person started to cut the pants legs on the jeans. ... [H]e started cutting up the leg and suddenly stopped, and jumped back when he found out that she was a man and said, 'This bitch ain't no girl ... it's a nigger, he's got a dick.'"

Two other witnesses corroborated the slur, and backed Poole's assertion that the emergency service workers and firefighters stopped treating Hunter for upwards of five minutes while "laughing and telling jokes" about her.

Two hours later, Hunter died of blunt trauma at D.C. General Hospital — after also being denied treatment by a doctor. My guess is that you had no idea of any of those situations, and they would alternately bemuse and disgust you. So what should we do, remain silent and let it happen without anyone else knowing? Or publicise it and be condemned as exhibitionists?

It doesn't seem to be genetic in the sense that there is an identifiable gene.It's "Genetic" in the way we ascribe all things that are physical, but of unknown or unproven causes. There are physical symtoms! Anyone whose gone through a 3 day bout with "Gender Hell" can attest. Anyone who doesn't trust their reactions to a pretty woman, while drinking, and drinks alone because of it, will know. Anyone who's ever contemplated ending their life with a shotgun knows what I'm talking about.

It's not about better orgasms! When are the ijits
who think that all they have to do is stick the kid in a psyhrink's office and reprogram him and everything will be ok! Psyhrinks don't reprogram people any way! They teach you to live with what's bothering you. No one has ever been talked out of This!
Let the therapy begin! Give the child the life that would normally be her's, not the one that's polically correct to you. Don't sentence her to an "acceptable" life that is, in reality, a death sentence.
Terry

Terry, you and I know this, but the great majority of people don't, and we really can't blame them for that. We've allowed ourselves to be used by various Leftist causes, simply because so many on the right would prefer that we not exist, and some take violent action to make sure we don't.

You and I know that there hasn't been a single recorded "cure" through therapy, aversion therapy (ie torture), electroshock, mind-bending drugs, and in living memory, lobotomy and leucotomy. But they don't. They think it's a matter of crazy people who need a good therapist.

Please don't blame them too much for that. Tell them the facts, keep on calmly presenting the evidence, and let them make up their own minds.

Those on the right tend to be honest, upright people, genuinely trying to do the right thing. I know this goes against leftist propaganda, but I find the Left to be big on words and short on actions. The Right tends to be the opposite - they may not be "politically correct", but when it comes to giving actual help, donations to flood victims etc, they do it while those on the Left are striking postures about how much they care, and doing exactly nothing to help.

I know it's difficult, and I cried buckets over the 2007 Transgender Day of Remembrance, where we commemorate those hundreds of people tortured, raped and slain for being IS or TS. The list had grown to 17 pages this year, remember? So very many of them children.

These people don't even know the TDOR exists. They'd be horrified if they witnessed in person some of the crap we have to put up with. All we have to do is not even educate them, just inform them of the facts, and don't tell them what to think. That's what the Lefties do, and it's not only wrong, it doesn't work.

Give them the facts, medical, legal and social. Their consciences will do the rest. Some of our greatest allies have been those who initially thought we were the usual leftist poseurs, until we steered them into sources of information they could look at themselves, and come to their own conclusions, not ours.

It's interesting that so many trannies felt the need to come over here and lecture on how terrific their lifestyle is. I gotta wonder, are they trying to convince us, or trying to convince themselves?

d sick of the legal battles I have to go through when it comes to simple things like getting a passport, or having my legally valid marriage of 27 years recognised.

Try changing your name, you will go through the same hassles - stop feeling like a victim this is something you did yourself, and decisions sometimes have unforeseen consequences - suck it up. If your marriage is no longer recognized in your state due to you both being the same sex move to a state it is recognized. Stop asking the world to adapt to you, adapt to it.

That is why the Supreme Court decided not to review the case; It is a state issue on how they handle the situation.

This is exactly what mandible claw was saying; do what you want in private, but stop trying to push your lifestyle on everyone else. Don't want to be treated like a freak at work? change to a different job where they don't know your "new identity".
I have no problem with Mandy, or Andy, I would have a problem with both if I had to do some "training" in work so you can feel better, or if you got your job because of some hiring mandate that puts you in your job. I would also not like to hear about operations, etc. Aside from that, it is unlikely the situation would ever be discussed.

Xantl, you nail it. It's not people's choices that we object to, it's the demand that society accommodate and celebrate their choices.

Anyone who thinks that ignorance is dead in America should read Xantl's post!
No where did I say how "great" my life is has been. The truth is it's been so "great" that many times I've thought of ending it, but what "Tranny" hasn't? It was never for myself or my TSism, It was for the reactions of nitwits, who couldn't accept it. Let's examine that for a
bit. I was a top Mech. Model maker for a major US Co., a gun owning Republican elected official. I have 3 Daughters and a wife of 40+ years. Later, I became a Property manager and a pilot. I was doing all the right things, yet I wanted "Out"!
Why wasn't the life I led making me happy? When you TS, you understand. If your not, you won't! But don't let that stop you from making asinine comments about something of which you know nothing! This is,to us, serious stuff! You may not get it, but we, who live it do. As Susan Stanton said; "First your'e born with this, then you fight it off all you're life, then it wins!"
The truly sad part is why anyone has to fight it off all their life.
Terry

It is people's "Choices" that you're opposed to!
You and your pals want to preserve your "Right" to harrass, bully, discriminate, and publicaly disparage TSes, Because you don't approve of where their "Choices" take them! Let's talk about "Choices" for a moment. Nothing could portray a TS entering transition worse than to say she made her "Choice". The concept of this being a choice is pure hogwash. For a more accurate picture, think of a cripple in a wheelchair, getting up and walking. Who would voluntarily "Choose" this? It is a second puberty, I had enough problems with the first. But I'm willing to go thru it to reach the end I'm seeking. I am Compelled! It's no choice, or it's the choice of a starving man to steal food. Yet there's no shortage of Hucksters out there selling the idea that this is a Choice. Even more weak minded souls, who know little or nothing that are willing to hang on the huckster's words and believe what they're told. Some way to explain it in simple terms that still allow you to denigrate. As long as you don't have to resect it as even a minor variation in the human condition (1% of the population)
Terry

Terry,
Thankfully I do not have to get it, nor understand it I am normal. I do not live my life thinking I'm a victim, or acting like the world should accommodate me, or my choices.

I'm sorry your life wasn't happy, and everything didn't work out exactly as you planned but that happens to people who do not have a dysfunction too, you are not the only people who struggle day-to-day.

Terry, how do people find out you're a TS?

It is really easy to say to someone, say a Transgendered person, because you don't understand or cannot sympathize with them, that they should just "accept the body they were born with". Well, maybe you should choose to walk a mile in someone else's shoes before you make judgements on them. And if you are going to use that argument, you should probably also go after every person who ever got plastic surgery or made any other kind of change to their physical appearance.

People also seem to be confusing "transgendered" with "transsexual" and I see the terms being interchanged, when in fact they are very different, so before you go forth stating your case, you should understand that this little 3rd grade boy is transgendered, he doesn't want to take hormonse, but rather feels he should have been born a female. Having gender identity issues does not make him emotionally or mentally unstable. In fact, it makes him pretty clear-headed to be able to recognize that at such a young age.

To the person that said "Stop asking the world to adapt to you, adapt to it" I would like to ask that person to take a moment and look around. Unfortunately, we are no longer living in the stone-ages and so it is quite plausible that we would expect our society to progress according to the needs our modern man and woman. GLBT issues may not have been an "issue" in the past, but society needs to accept that more than 10% of the population is gay, lesbian or transgendered. You do the math. Sexual orientation or sexual identity does not define a person as a whole entity; these people still deserve the right to be treated humanely and as equals to any other person in society, as long as they abide by the laws and remain as upstanding citizens, there is no reason why they should be deemed as "freaks" or "deviants". They have done nothing wrong other than try to live their left according to who they believe they truly are, just as anyone else would do.

No one is asking you to live your life in a way that makes you uncomfortable or unhappy, and if they do, you also deserve to take a stand for what you believe is right for yourself. I've said it before and I'll say it again, before you make judgements on someone, put yourself in their shoes. Being gay, lesbian or transgendered in not a CHOICE; no one would willingly present themselves to a world of hatred and homophobia and threat.

The next time you want to quote the bible or use the defense that the GLBT community is ruining the "traditional values of family and society", I ask you to step outside the box, stop using the Bible as your defense and take the opportunity to actually form your own thoughts, ideas and opinions based on the world around you and not based on a piece of literature written thousands of years ago. And if you must quote the Bible, use this one, it's my favorite (and I'm not even Christian):

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

Everyone should spend more time putting love in the world than trying to take it away.

That's all well and good. If you're an adult you just go ahead and knock yourself out adding or subtracting parts like crazy! That's your deal. I think the issue is so messed up because it's a kid in question. It's a kid who unfortunately is gonna get the crap kicked out of him numerous times because kids are mean as hell and they go for blood-- I should know-- I had my fair shair of ass-kickings over the years because I never really fit in.

Face facts: kids aren't going to be melted and poured into these acceptance roles people keep trying to fit them into. They're gonna be kids-- mean, bullying, trivial, spiteful kids. I'm not saying kids should back down from something they want or believe if bullies give them lip, but I am saying that we should be aware of the fact that kids don't always make the best decisions about things. That's part of the fun that is being a kid. One day you think girls are icky... the next you want to be one... the next you want to be with one. How can we say that that kid knows what he wants to be for the rest of his life?

My cousin was convinced he wanted to be Barbie when he was 10 years old. He always played with Barbies, then he wanted to be Barbie, and then he wanted to marry his dad. He's now a very straight, very married, very happy male with no connections to the childhood wishes he had then. Imagine his life of confusion if he had made those childhood wishes known in a public spectacle like the kid in the article has? It would probably have been a whole different road for my cousin. He might have swallowed the notion that he wanted to be Barbie and been eventually just as trapped in a transgendered life-choice as a transgender male feels in a typical male life-choice.

I understand the point you are making that people who are transgendered pretty much know from an early age that something within themselves doesn't quite "fit." But by making a big, public display of this at such a young age, you pretty much have already decided in open that that is the path you'll take before you even know that Santa Claus isn't real.

Like I've said before, most of us here don't give a crap what you do with your organs when you're a big boy or girl as long as it doesn't effect anyone else's rights. It's the age of the child in the case here that makes us folks a tad concerned. I'm just asking for a moment to step back and apply reason to the situation without thinking this is some kind of right-wing witch hunt.

What does the bible say?
When else fails, the weakminded will run to their pastor and ask what does religion say about it. Now if they were really religious, they would know several things about the Bible and wouldn't have to be told.
First, the Bible is two books, not one. The Old Testament (Jewish) and the New Testament (Christian) The first five books are called the Pentateuch. They make up the Torah. This is where the hellfire and damnation is. This is where we find the bizarre Jewish laws against mixing of crops, mixing fibers, and allowing the selling one's daughter into slavery. Laws which are an embarrassment to many modern Jews. This is where the laws against crossdressing are also.

Moving to the New Testament. The NT begins with the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Matthew was discribing a conversation he had with Jesus, in which he said; "There are three kinds of eunuch, Those that are born that way! Those that are made. And those who make themselves eunuchs, let he who can recieve it, recieve it!" (Matt 19:12)

Eunuchs are an ancient custom that only survives today in India where they're known as Hijra. And they are all Transgendered. They live and dress as women. They take women's names and do women's work. They are women! This is not some liberal dream! They are not shoving their "Lifestyle" down anyone's throat. They are just living and being which we all want. So it was for centuries, so it was in Jesus' time.
Terry

To the person that said "Stop asking the world to adapt to you, adapt to it" [..] but society needs to accept that more than 10% of the population is gay, lesbian or transgendered. You do the math.
I do not have to accept that at all, in the world according to you I do, but that isn't really how it works. Firstly, I don't see how your lifestyle would come to my attention? I can assure you it isn't because I asked about it. Secondly there will always be jerks, and if they were not making fun of you being a TS it would be the way you walk, your partners looks, or anything else they could single you out for. It has always been that way. I have zero problems with anyones lifestyle unless it is imposed upon me by law, people, or an employer.
If you think dictating to the majority how they should change to be suitable to you is helping your cause you might want to re-evaluate.

The same people demanding acceptance and tolerance of their life choices seem to have no problem calling people who disagree with them childish, barbaric, or stupid... or calling religious people "weak-minded."

Physician, heal thyself. If you want people to accept you, you might start by showing respect and tolerance to others. Or, does your special status exempt you from the social rules you demand everyone else follow?

Well, first off, I am not "TS" as you call it, or Transgendered, which is the real issue here (that student is NOT TS, so before you go on with your holy than thou defense, you should at least get your facts straight).

Secondly, you will eventually have to accept it, whether you like it or not, because like so many other many social injustices and inequalities that have since come full circle (women's suffrage, african american rights, the abolishment or slavery, etc) the GLBT community WILL gain equality in all aspects of society; in the workplace, in marriage, in politics, etc. You, personally xantl, can choose to deny it, can fight your acceptance, but eventually being gay, lesbian or transgendered WILL become just as normal as anyone else. And it hasn't always been that way, just look at how much has already changed since Stonewall. Gay Marriage is legal in 1 state already, I suppose you can't deny the existence of that, now can you?

Santa Claus isn't real??????!!!!!!

To "V the K" if your statement "calling religious people 'weak-minded'" is directed at me, you can rest assured that I made no such statement and that your loose interpretation of my words is horribly off the mark. In fact, I do show respect and tolerance to all people, and I did not say that religious individuals are weak-minded at all, in fact, I simply asked the religious fundamentalists to make an attempt to form their own opinions based on real-life observations and not what the scripture tells them to believe. If you perceive that to be a sign of weak-mindedness, than maybe YOU are the one who feels intellectually inferior due to your religious beliefs.

To "V the K" if your statement "calling religious people 'weak-minded'" is directed at me, you can rest assured that I made no such statement and that your loose interpretation of my words is horribly off the mark. In fact, I do show respect and tolerance to all people, and I did not say that religious individuals are weak-minded at all, in fact, I simply asked the religious fundamentalists to make an attempt to form their own opinions based on real-life observations and not what the scripture tells them to believe. If you perceive that to be a sign of weak-mindedness, than maybe YOU are the one who feels intellectually inferior due to your religious beliefs.

Secondly, you will eventually have to accept it, whether you like it or not Wrong. It does not matter what law you think will make you "equal" it most surely will not force anyone to accept you. They might not say it to your face, but they will behind your back, people will avoid you in the office, and avoid social situations that involve you. All of the above "equal protection clauses" that you cite fail from the same -- you cannot force people to accept you, nor stop them discriminating against you in their mind.

Like someone said earlier, what makes you think the condition that causes the dysfunction will even exist in the future?

Xantl, the sad thing is, you are the minority here, because I am accepted, I may not be transgendered, but I am gay, and you might find this hard to believe but I am fully out at work, with my family and in all aspects of my life. I am not "avoided in the office" and people do not "avoid social situations that involve me". In fact, I am quite successful and living a pretty happy life. The discriminatory minds, such as your own, are slowly falling to the wayside. YOU may be the one avoiding a gay or transgendered person in the office, but my friend, the last laugh will be on you.

As for "condition that causes the dysfunction" - those words are obsolete and have no meaning to me. Being gay, lesbian or transgendered is not a condition or a dysfunction, as stated by the APA here: http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html#mentalillness

You might want to read up on the APA's website, because it sounds like you have been grossly misinformed and could use a good dose of educating. You can argue with me but are you really going to argue with science?

As someone said earlier, there may be a test that allows parents the option to test for the susceptibility of being transgender, or homosexuality in their child where a parent could chose to abort -- or even a treatment that does not require surgery.

I gave you an example in how laws do not protect, or make you equal but nice try in trying to make it my opinion, and how it fits into your life.

By the way, the "last laugh" won't be on me -- I believe we will be both long dead before the social changes that you outline will occur :D

Face facts: kids aren't going to be melted and poured into these acceptance roles people keep trying to fit them into. They're gonna be kids-- mean, bullying, trivial, spiteful kids. I'm not saying kids should back down from something they want or believe if bullies give them lip, but I am saying that we should be aware of the fact that kids don't always make the best decisions about things. That's part of the fun that is being a kid. One day you think girls are icky... the next you want to be one... the next you want to be with one. How can we say that that kid knows what he wants to be for the rest of his life?

Posted by: Thulsa Doom at May 7, 2008 10:46 AM

where are the parents of these bullys? who is teaching these kids its ok attack another kid for any reason? why is it so acceptible, I know its just the way kids are. hate for the most starts at home. this is why laws need to be passed to protect all childern in school from violence.

people have the right to think what they want, you have the right to speak your mind but you do not at anytime have the right to touch me or anyone else for any reason. this is why laws need to be passed to protect people from violence. will it stop probably not. just think if the shoe was on the other foot, what if GLBT people started targeting "normal people" with violence, beating them up leaving thier bloody body on the side of road to die. do you see the wrong here? I do and Im the confused one lol

Xantl, I'd like to see research on this statement "As someone said earlier, there may be a test that allows parents the option to test for the susceptibility of being transgender, or homosexuality in their child where a parent could chose to abort -- or even a treatment that does not require surgery." Otherwise, I'm calling it a crock of BS and it sounds like your advocating Eugenics.

Also, if sciences COULD test for "susceptibility" in utero of being gay or transgendered" than that pretty much blows the argument that it's a "choice" if you're saying it's genetically pre-determined. But "as someone said earlier" is not a viable or reliable source of information, so you might want to try actually putting some statistical information before you continue to make yourself look like an uneducated asshole.

Lesberita:
Research into what may occur in the future? wouldn't we all like to see that? slowly now, try to grasp the concept of "may" and "future"...
Why would it be a bad thing to allow parents to choose if they have a child that has a normal lifestyle? are you against the "freedom to choose"? You had told me that so many people will think your lifestyle is normal in the future, wouldn't they accept it, rather than terminate?
I don't believe it is a "choice" e.g you wake up and think you want to be homosexual, or transgender. If I said "choice" it was in the sense of "surgery" [for TS]

"there may be a test" has implications that it may currently existence to the best of your knowledge, not "it may someday be developed by scientists".

I am certainly an advocate for the Freedom to choose, and depending on your definition of a "normal lifestyle", aborting a potentially gay fetus would be a practice that certainly borders on Eugenics because sexual preference is the same as skin color, race, nationality, etc; it is not a choice. People still choose to give birth to children with Down Syndrome and other developmental disabilities, yet according to your standards, they aren't "normal", so therefore you believe they should be aborted? Someone who is gay, lesbian or transgendered is no less "normal" than any other person, because their sexual orientation or their gender identity does not define them as an individual and does not make them any less equal than anyone else.

I simply want people to understand that all the GLBT community wants is to live their life like anyone else; they are intentiionally "flaunting" their sexuality but want to be able to walk down the street holding hands with their partner, just like any heterosexual couple would do. They want to be able to live a life without fear of prejudice and a life of equality. Just for once, people should stop and look at someone, not for their gender, sexual preference, race, religion, or skin color, and just see them as a person, a unique individual who has set out on this earth to follow their own unique path in life. If everyone just stuck to their own agenda, free of hate and disrespect, the world would be a better place.

Like someone said earlier, what makes you think the condition that causes the dysfunction will even exist in the future? /sigh

aborting a potentially gay fetus would be a practice that certainly borders on Eugenics
Is it really? why would it be any different that giving the choice of aborting a child with mental retardation, or a physical disability? listening to half the whiners on here talking about how bad their life is, it most definitely is not a lifestyle I would inflict on my child if I could avoid it.

they are intentiionally "flaunting" their sexuality but want to be able to walk down the street holding hands with their partner, just like any heterosexual couple would do.

In every situation where I have found out that someone is gay, it is because they told me [most of the time, in a very direct manner] and not because I've asked. As I do not go around flaunting my heterosexual lifestyle, and talking about sex, etc is it too much to ask for gay people to do the same? Of course it is, because of this "we're here, and we're queer" mentality that has been projected -- where everyone must know you're gay.
As I said I have no problem with your lifestyle while you keep it private, I don't need to accept, or "celebrate" your lifestyle, I don't ask the same of you, don't dare expect special treatment from me.

Les,
Sexual preference is not a choice???

Lesberita
great posts
I could live with this. but some people cant/wont look pass the GLT part long enough to know the person inside. its thier loss, missing out on a great group of people because a book says so.
a men wrote all theses books, good part of your beliefs come from them? is it possible the men that wrote them could of been crazy to begain with. out to control a group of people with fear of some oh mighty god striking them down. I bet I mite have believe this too back afew thousand years but people are still relying on a book that so out dated for where we are as a society. this is 2008?

There goes tran4life again, trying to rationalize that the only people that don't accept TS lifestyle being inflicted upon them is religious people -- whatever makes you happy I guess.

I officially give up. There's no point in trying to argue anymore.

In every situation where I have found out that someone is gay, it is because they told me [most of the time, in a very direct manner] and not because I've asked. As I do not go around flaunting my heterosexual lifestyle, and talking about sex, etc is it too much to ask for gay people to do the same? Of course it is, because of this "we're here, and we're queer" mentality that has been projected -- where everyone must know you're gay.
As I said I have no problem with your lifestyle while you keep it private, I don't need to accept, or "celebrate" your lifestyle, I don't ask the same of you, don't dare expect special treatment from me.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 7, 2008 12:46 PM

oh I bet you do flaunt your heterosexual lifestyle. every time you made a comment about a pretty girl and how much you would like to hit it. oh by the way comments like this are so disrespectful to women. every time you are walking in public holding hands with the opposite sex and in so many other ways.

oh really, you must assume to know me very well to one assume that I say "I'll hit it" to anything that walks past, and two to lecture me about respect for women.

There isn't a law that stops you holding hands, kissing or anything else, so don't make out like you're being oppressed.

Anonymous, you may not think that you are flaunting your heterosexual lifestyle, but the very things you take for granted each day thanks to that lifestyle are in essence being inadvertently flaunted in our faces. When you talk about your "wife" or "husband" you are flaunting your ability to marry. When you bring your significant other or spouse to a work function, you are flaunting it. When you go out in public, hug, kiss, hold hands and exchange affections, you are flaunting it. You might not consider this flaunting, but than again, neither do we. According to your standard, though, we must remain deeply closeted otherwise it is a sin for us to show the world that we feel the same love and affection for another individual that you do. Homosexuality is not about sex, and for those to choose to see it only as that, are blinded by their own one-sided convictions. Anyone in the GLBT community will tell you that these equalities we are fighting so hard to protect are about showing the world that we deserve to give and recieve love, the same as anyone else.

Lesberita:
Show me this law, that stops you doing any of the above in public?

Xantl this is not about the law at all, in fact I never once mentioned anything about doing things illegally. It is about the fact that homophobes believe the GLBT chooses to flaunt our sexuality in everyone's faces and if we could only just "keep it ourselves" it would be fine. And you know what stops us a lot of time from doing the above things in public? The fear of being attacked, brutally beaten, tortured and even murdered, simply for whom we love.

hogwash, armed gays don't get bashed:
www.pinkpistols.com
get "educated".

Why don't you call up Matthew Shepard's parents and tell them to "get educated"

If he had been carrying, he probably wouldn't be dead.

I don't believe in carry guns, violence isn't the answer, tolerance is.

Well keep living scared until "tolerance" catches up then.

So you think every person who is scared should carry a gun around? That sounds like the worst idea I think I've ever heard, pretty soon everyone will be shooting everyone else and there won't be anyone left to cause any problems.

Why? Do you have self-control problems? I carry, and know several people who carry in my state and have never "fired a shot in anger" as they say. To date my Pistol has killed less people than Ted Kennedy's car.

I do not believe that carrying weapons other than many pepper spray for self defense, would solve any problems. I would rather advocate for someone to take a self-defense class, don't walk alone at night and educate them in protecting themselves rather than carrying a gun around, which has the potential to end up in the wrong hands. I am a pacifist, I do not believe violence is the answer and I would never in a million years advocate anyone carry a gun, no matter how bad their situation is.

oh really, you must assume to know me very well to one assume that I say "I'll hit it" to anything that walks past, and two to lecture me about respect for women.

There isn't a law that stops you holding hands, kissing or anything else, so don't make out like you're being oppressed.

Posted by: xantl at May 7, 2008 2:21 PM

sorry if I made it out like you would say it, it was more on the lines of how heterosexual males talk to each other to push thier lifestyle.

yes are so right there are no laws against holding hands even kissing, still doesnt change the fact there are people that will attack same sex couples for doing this. my wife and I have been aaaaulted twice because the persons precieved us as a lesbain couple.

That is your personal preference, then fair thee well; however thousands of pacifists are beaten, or murdered by those who are not. Pepper spray is not a bad choice, nor is a tazer if state law allows. Anyone who would do you bodily harm deserves what they get. In the case of the "Pink Pistols" it would be a round to the center mass, but anything that would allow you to flee would also do as well. I often find that people that take certain types of Martial Art believe they are protected, but the problem is that most forms, are conventional one-on-one type frontal attacks, which as you know is very rare, in this day and age.

Speaking of guns and intolerance, here's some news for you:

On February 12, 2008, a 15-year-old trangendered student at E.O. Green Junior High School in Oxnard, California, named Larry King was shot and killed by a classmate. Brandon McInerney, that classmate has been charged with murder. Two lives were destroyed in that tragedy of ignorance.

Lesberita-

First, where I'm coming from. I'm straight. However, unlike I imagine many people here I've had a lot of experience of gay people. I worked in West End theatre for many years, and theatre is very gay. I had many gay acquaintances and friends. Getting a late drink usually meant going to gay venues like Heaven or the Piano Bar (a great TV/TS joint in Soho which is sadly no longer there, I believe).

After I stopped working in theatre for health reasons I ended up being a normal electrician (I'd been a theatre electrician (lighting engineer)). That isn't very gay is it? Well, it was; I was working with a gay builder, with gay clients, including gay "scene" venues where we effectively on an unofficial retainer. I spent more of that time socialising "gay" than "straight". The only off-putting thing about it was seeing how depressingly easy it is for gay people to get laid compared to us straights; indeed I pulled more times just sitting at the bar minding my own business than I care to mention, heh. Everyone accepted me as straight, and I accepted everyone as gay. I was even considered, jokingly, "honorary gay".

I think I've had as much experience as anyone straight can reasonably have of gayness and the gay scene. Here I am on Moonbattery. You may care to consider me therefore naturally a "homophobe" and no amount of protesting would change that. You may think what I'm about to say is homophobic. I don't think I could reasonably be described as havign some irrational fear of homosexuals considering my "pedigree" but there you go. Here endeth the disclaimer.

From my own experiences, I don't believe people are born gay. I have known far too many gays who had been straight- not repressed gay, not gays desperately trying to conform to straightness, but men who had girlfriends and happy straight sex lives, sired children, then became attracted to the gay life and became gay. This is anecdotal of course, just chatting to people, it's not formally collected data. Just personal experience.

By contrast, my sister (also a thesp) when in her 20s had a relationship with an actor, much older than her, who had spent 30 years being gay before concluding that he wasn't gay after all; that he'd been influenced by the gay atmosphere of theatre and he really rather preferred girls. Lovely bloke, and not bitter, or religously motivated or a "right wingnut", simply a man who had changed his mind.

I see gayness as a "philia". Just as people aren't born with a rubber fetish gene, or a fascination with redheads, or furry, I believe that all the rational evidence point to homosexuality being an acquired behaviour. Some people being entirely homosexual, some people become partially homosexual. Most in our society don't. We can also look at the examples held up by Gay Rights activists of other societies, and note that they in fact also point to homosexuality not being genetic- in ancient Greece for instance men in their 20s commonly took boy lovers, before moving on to wives and children a little later. Homosexuality was a "phase" in that culture, not a rigid thing. We should also note that overwhelmingly, cultural homosexuality has been pederastic in nature (as were the gays of the past in our own society, e.g. Oscar Wilde, who nowadays would be locked up not for sodomy but for underage sodomy). But that's a seperate issue.

There is no "gay gene". There may well be personality types who are more likely to become homosexual, and if personality has genetic components (I believe it does) then there would be some genes more common in gays than straights. But that's not the same as being born gay- just as an extrovert personality may be more likely to become a lead vocalist in a rock band, but there isn't a "gene for lead singers".

Which brings me to the point. Homosexuality, an acquired sexual preference, is a world away from being transgender, which if it exists (and I believe it does) is a medical condition. If one believes that what progressives call "gender" i.e. one's sex belief, is biological (and I, and I would imagine most conservatives would believe it is) then clearly there must be a possibility of that going wrong and a transgender person resulting. We also know that there are all sorts of chromosomal mistakes leading to various syndromes.

So, here we have the conflation of two profoundly different things; a sexual preference and a congenital disability. So why do the Left insist on lumping them together? The first is merely an issue of social values, the second is a profound medical problem. The Left make them both "identity politics" issues when they are apples and oranges. We only have to look at the difference in attitudes- gays want to be what they are, transgender people do not want to be what they are, to see the absurdity.

And then we come to the confusion created by left wing idealogues. One reason the non-left are so touchy on this subject is that leftist feminists have spent the past five decades yelling that gender is a social construct; boys are only boys because they're taught to be boys, and a boy could be socially conditioned to be a girl. That's fucking codswallop, isn't it? What's most significant is that it is entirely incompatible with the existence of transgenderism unless you want to say that a transgender boy who thinks he's a girl has been conditioned to think he's a girl by some mysterious malevolent social force. Are you saying that? I'm not.

But the feminist narrative of social construction has been used ruthlessly to attack the things many people hold dear- male roles in society, the male consciousness itself, the family. The mere idea that men and women may have different aptitudes and attitudes, or prefer different social roles, has been ruthlessly attacked and torn down, with cries of "sexist!" or "misogynist!" used to silence more conservative voices. And yet with transexuality and homosexuality, the same people are claiming it's all biological, fixed, in the genes. What happened to the social construct?!

Conservatives and libetarians (I am the latter) understand very well that this approach is because the left don't care a fig for gays or gender dysphorics or anybody else. Identity politics is a strategy, a political ruse to create "communities" who can be used as crowbars against the enemy (white straight imperialist warmongers). Thus a preference for same-sex sex is elevated to an entire description of a person and they are granted a "community". A serious and distressing medical condition is made the same. Instead of discussing treatment, a social model is imposed, steamrollering over the instincts of ordinary people.

And people find a boy masquerading as a girl to be freakish. You may disapprove of that, but they do. They find it so because gender is important which is the whole reason transgender persons feel the way they do. Gender isn't fluid, and people expect others to be "one or the other"- and simply put if it didn't matter to the population at large it wouldn't matter to transgender persons either, indeed there would be no such condition! People are upset by it because it goes against the way the world normally is; humans have a natural revulsion at the "freakish" (which is also probably genetic, and has served us well in evolutionary terms). Just as a kid with four legs and a trunk would engender a "freak" reaction, so does a boy in a stuffed bra and camisole. That's the way people are.

Woo, lots of waffle. I'll finish up by pointing out that there has never in human history been a society that has accepted gays and transexuals as "normal". As I said, cultural homosexuality in the past has been pederastic in nature, not the "gay married couple" model proposed today. Indeed it's probably far more freakish for guys to want stable relationships, than for old men to bugger young boys. Likewise, feminised men have invariably been treated as different (where historically recorded) and given ritual religious roles and the like (e.g. the temple prostitutes mentioned in ye Bible).

You may complain about discrimination, but the truth is, gays have never had it so good, and transexuals have a medical understanding denied their predecessors. But there I go, lumping th