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I poured over Behe's first book "Darwin's black box" from years back. It was the most damning indictment of neo-darwinist baloney I've ever read, and I've read some excellent books (Wells' Icons of Evolution, P. Johnson's Darwin on Trial and Broom's How blind is the watchmaker) that refute evilution. I'll be certain to purchase this latest from Behe. He's taken tremendous heat and has withstood the test.

Of course, if Darwin's theories could stand up to scrutiny, they wouldn't have to be imposed by force, and the common sense concept of Intelligent Design wouldn't require suppression.

That is SO true, and SO representative of SO many aspects of today's moonbattery. Everything from Affirmative Action, to Global Warming, to abortion; the fools prohibit debate because they can't win.

Whilen I disagree with you about Evolution (sorry, but nothing presented so far is rational science as far as I'm concerned), its ridiculous for Atheists to celebrate Darwin. Most of them are strident Anti-Natural Selection/Survival of the Fittest. Like most, they are actually Gaiaists in disguise, claiming to be Atheists. Then there is the especially virulent brand of Atheism that is Fundamentalist to the point it could be called Christian Derangement Syndrome.

Myself, I'm a Deist. Some Atheists I've met are perfectly normal people. However, the majority have been jackasses and do nothing but denigrate other people's religion, forgetting that their own belief system is just as much religion as Christianity.

As for the scientific 'consensus', yes, it sadly gets crammed down people's throat as being 100% irrefutable. Advocates forget that our knowledge of the biological world and its mechanisms are constantly being revised. I don't want Intelligent Design taught in school, but at the same time religious belief should not be quashed as it is now.

Wow!

Darwin not standing up to scrutiny?!? Intelligent Design-common sense???!!

Do you know what scientific scrutiny is?

This post is perhaps, the KING , of all idiotic posts.

Do you know anything about Behe? He admits openly, as a major intelligent design advocate, that his "theory" (ID) has never been subjected to anything remotely resembling scientific practice.

He has admitted that belief in God is a necessary requirement for the plausibility of his theories. What's scientific about that?

His views have largely been dismissed by the scientific community. The biology department at Lehigh University, where he works, rejects his theories as unscientific.

He has been unable, in a court of law, to simply communicate why his theories should be called science at all.

He has all but admitted that Astrolgy holds as much scientific legitamacy as intelligent design.

Basically, Behe makes a pretty penny providing testimony for various Christian organizations as they crusade to remove Science from school curriculums and replace it with Religion masquerading as science.

Darwin's theories, on the other hand, have been scientifically tested and VERIFIED! Do you understand the major earth-shattering difference? Unfortunately, I really don't think you do.

Really, I will grant you all the political differences in the world...we disagree on many things, fair enough....But seriously, holding Behe's theories up against Darwin is simply absurd. It's embarrasing, really. I am sincerely embarrased for you and by you. It's like comparing Beethoven and Brittney, or fine Italian wine with Thunderbird or something.

There is nothing to debate here Jim-Blow. You either understand something or you don't. It's really really hard to debate with someone who dosen't know what he's talking about. Believe me I've tried.

There is nothing to debate...
Posted by: hashfanaticFAN

I rest my case.

Time to check your horoscope, jim-blow.

It's called "the THEORY of Evolution", hfFAN. That's because there is ALWAYS DEBATE in science, there is NEVER "the last word". If you REALLY believed in scientific theory, you would know that.
As for the ToE, I am a believer BUT, I know enough about it to know that there are some things that are wrong and have been disproved. One of the most objectionable things about ToE is that it has been used as an excuse by "superior races" to oppress the "sub humans". Then there are people like yourself who only know about the debate from "Inherit The Wind", which was a FARCE, not a documinatry.
In any case, I believe that what we call "evolution" is part of God's plan.

Yes, it is called a theory, but you should really look up wht that word means in a scientific context. In order to be called theory it needs to be empirically tested and substantiated. it's also called the "theory of gravity". do you want to debate that?

ID on the ohter hand, because it has not, and probably cannot, be empirically tested and verified cannot be called a theory. Something like ID is called, a GUESS, or a stab in the dark, if you like.

ok, kharn...my point is that ID, being religion, is the antithesis of science.

Believe me if anyone had used Evolution to oppress "sub-humans", you wouldn't be typing barely coherent sentences on your computer today.

On the other hand, i've never heard of religion being used to justify the oppression of "inferior" people, have you? Probably not.

Just for laughs, I'd really really like to know what things you "know are wrong and have been disproved" about Evolution. Come on, I want a detailed scientific explanation along with links to back up the numerous studies you will most certainly cite.

You then go on to claim to believe in evolution after all, so I'd like to hear more about your justification of that and precisely how you rectify that with the obvious contradictions it must present with regard to your religious faith.

Thanks

Sorry, have to call you on this complete bollocks.

Just for you to mention " ... one species [evolving] into a different one by random mutation ... " shows you have no idea what you are talking about. This is a straw man fallacy. You are arguing against your own misinterpretation of Darwinian evolution, not the theory as understood by scientists. I suggest you read around the subject, possibly starting with Stephen J. Gould.

Ironically capitalism relies on many of the same factors as Darwinian evolution. Evolution and capitalism are based on the net effect of many millions of relatively small, imperfectly-realised influences. Theistic religion and socialism are based on the idea that a single, central decision maker should have all the influence. Why is it then in America that so many capitalists believe a god created the world and so many people who believe in evolutionary biology think that a central authority is superior to distributed decisions? The ideas are fundamentally incompatible!

P.S. There is no common sense in "Intelligent Design". In fact if you study the philosophy in depth it trips over its own fundamental basis. There is on the other hand a lot of common sense in evolution if you actually study what it means, not what fundamentalist Christians who don't understand it or have an interest in misrepresenting it say it means!

P.P.S. The idea of a Darwin day is just silly.

The theory of evolution. Let's see first word: THEORY, that's not fact otherwise it would be called the FACT of evolution. Sorry hashboyfan we can argue this all day but I refuse to believe I evolved from an ape. Is it possible that ToE and ID take a certain amount of faith to believe in one or the other? So basically the two are the same. A person can believe either because they have faith in that decision based on the information they have read. Ahh a paradox.

I'm in agreement with you, FT. And it can't be compared with the "theory of gravity" as some of the more moonbatty moonbats would like. Talk about comparing apples to peach pits - I had people walking into my office asking what I was laughing about when I read that earlier today. It has to be one of the most stupid comparisons I've ever heard. Another one for the books. It's going to reach the point that Van won't have to go looking for examples of moonbattery to post for us - it's all coming here making a fine example of itself.

Drive a couple of Mack Trucks through the D Day crowd and see who is fit to survive and adapt.

20 bucks to the driver of the truck with hash on its tires.

Behe is a biochemist who in the past has garnered NIH grants. Do you know how difficult it is to get one of those? In other words, He knows his stuff and you, hash-frantic have obviously not studied evolution. I was studying evolution and earning an advanced degree in biology while you were smoking weed and spanking your teensy monkey in the boys' room.

I've analyzed Behe's examples and found them to be sound for very scientific reasons. Ever heard of irrefutable complexity?
Think if you can: obviously when one espouses randomness as the main thrust in evolution, then the very regulatory proteins needed to control and ensure survival of another protein's function must somehow miraculously "show up" after millions of random mistakes beforehand only to emerge in full form and function prior to the very protein's existence they are charged with protecting and regulating! Surely if the very structural and regulatory proteins emerge before the actual protein exists, this is not random, rather, it points strongly to intelligent design. Yet in random events, by the time the acted-on protein "evolves", the very proteins needed to regulate it may cease to exist for lack of having any use. Yet evolution would have us think this is reasonable. Talk about unscientific and downright retarded.

Nor can one hold up mutation as a shining example of evolutionary theory. Mutation does not equal evolution and considering most mutations are either lethal or damaging, it doesn't make a good case for survivability in a species much less the in the concept of speciation. Frankly speaking, evolution doesn't hold up well under scrutiny and looks uglier and more ludicrous the more closely one examines it.

Intelligent design may not be provable, but then neither is evolution. Yet ID has reason on its side and the obvious. Something most evolutionist sorely lack.

fellowes -
That's WAY over a moonbat's head. Watch for some name-calling directed your way - it's the only response they know to intelligent thought that goes against their programmed illogic and repeated assinine rhetoric. They'll no doubt come up with what they think is a really degenerate rhyme to your name, call it good, and consider themselves winners of a "debate".

Dude, refer to the Dover trial (vids available on PBS website) to see why Behe is full of it. Despite your relentless jihad against moonbattery and the endless pleasure I derive from it , criticizing evolution with the help of Behe is a fools paradise. Its like trying to say modern physics is hoopla because Newton didn't get gravitation exactly right. I'm sure some will take offense, but until you sit through an Evolution class for a semester, you tend to fall in the same Behe-esque traps (i.e. irreducible complexity, is, in fact, reducible).

The family of Hash has just demonstrated that they are like Shrillary Clinton... They'll take any position that best suits the situation! Only in the Hash clan's case, the position must simply always be opposite of whatever is posted on Moonbattery.

No Farmer Ted, you did not evolve from an ape.

YOU ARE STILL AN APE! It's the rest of us who have evolved.

Whether you refuse to believe something or not has no bearing on it's truth.

but until you sit through an Evolution class for a semester

Adam, remember that in a college or university classroom, the professor has full control over what information is disseminated to the students.

Just as it is with a rabidly pro-Black Histories professor, or a liberal BDS troofer teaching Political Science, or a Saudi-trained professor describing Middle East relations, Biology classes are not exempt from bias and selective indoctrination.

I for one consider evolution an excellent theory. I'm just waiting for a nice and complete line of fossils that show the gradual changes from, say, limbed land mammals to legless whales. Not bits and pieces of wholly different sizes, but all the in-between transitionals.

Or any other hard evidence like the kind Newton, Einstein and other physicists had to PROVE their theories.

You people, particularly fellowes, are just revealing your own ignorance more and more.

Again I am embarrased for you and ashamed of you for being so ignorant and claiming to actually have studied science.

Who taught you fellowes? Whatever institution you attended should immediately lose it's accreditation. i'm sure it was Oral Roberts Univ or some similar Christian brainwashing institution.

Even Behe admits his theories are not scientifically sound, and can't even be called science! yet, you have the ignorance to claim it is valid.

I'm sorry, but you really don't know what you are talking about here, and it becomes more and more obvious with every word you write.

Sorry. Again, comapring Evolution, a theory which has been scientifically tested time and time again, and VERIFIED, to ID, a theory never tested by ANYONE, is simply living in flat out denial of the real world. You live a complete illusion. Your sense of reality is just as addled as any junkie or crack head, and i really hope that I don't have to come across people like you in my everyday dealings.

frankly, you are dangerous, and I will go so far as to say, bordering on insane. I urge you to seek professional help. Really.

And fellowes it's called "irreducible complexity", not " irrefuable complexity".

No one has ever heard of "irrefutable complexity".

Seriously, get help. You should be ashamed of yourself.

a conversation with Farmer Ted:

me: hey did you see the Super Bowl? Can you believe the Giants won?

FT: No they didn't.

me: oh yes they did 17-14. Maybe the biggest upset in Super Bowl history.

FT: no they didn't

Me: I can show you the score. We could even watch the game again if you want.

FT: No, I refuse to believe it.

Me: Come on, watch it me. I'll show you the box score.

FT: No, because I refuse to believe it. The Patriots won.

Me: No they didn't. Giants 17-14.

FT: I refuse to believe it.

Me: I give up.

FT: See I told you the Patriots won.

I can not believe what I am reading here is really happening.
The theory of evolution is sustained on facts, you can see it in all the fossil records of animals, how they have been evolved and how we have evolved, changing our body, reducing our teeth, increasing our craneal cavity, along of the time. There is evidencies in all the parts of the world, with different generations of animals, apes and humans modifing their characteristics to survive with biggest advantage in the world. This is not something to debate, I am really sad, I can not understand that adult persons can deny a fact.
Is not there evolution? How you can explain the different stages of the hominidae fossils evolving from a like-ape towards a like-man? That is how to deny that once you was a kid and to deny all the photographical evidences of your own past showing you as a baby, a kid, a young man, an adult, and to say you were just born as an adult man.

It is very embarrassing to have to say such a things to an adult people. It is my belief that to have a conservative ideology is not the same thing that to have a stupid ideology. I want completely to forget the comments what I have been reading in this thread.
This is very sad.

Hashypoo,
I'm not the one doing the name calling,so who's the ape now? I did watch the superbowl and I believe the Giants won because I saw them win. You still haven't answered my question. If the theory of evolution is factual then why is it called the THEORY of evolution?

You can believe in Intelligent Design, or you can embrace the alternative. Which goes something like this:

Billions of years ago, all of time and space existed in an area less than the size of an atom. What medium this extremely dense, extremely compact continuum existed in or where it came from... science doesn't have an answer for. Just take their word that it wasn't God or anything like that.

Anyway, for no reason whatsoever, a quantum instability developed in this tiny extremely dense thing to cause it to explode out and create the entire space-time continuum.

Out of this Big Bang, the four basic forces of the universe came into being. The mathematical odds against these forces coming out in such a way as to make it possible for matter to form are on the scale of trillions-to-one against. Even minor variations in their properties would make matter and life as we know it impossible. But the odds just happened to break in our favor... but not because of God or anything like that.

Of the matter that eventually formed, a certain amount of it had properties that made it a suitable basis for life. Billions of years later, some of these chemicals were stewing in a pool of toxic waste on the barren surface of the Earth and somehow managed to come together in such a way that they were able to replicate and become the precursors to life. Even though the odds that these random chemicals would react that way remain astronomical... this was just another lucky coincidence.

Billions of years passed, and through another series of unlikely coincidences... such as the Earth possessing a moon that was large enough to stabilize it's axial tilt, mass extinctions that winnowed out other forms of life until mammals became dominant, additional geologic events that winnowed the pool of advanced primates to a single dominant species... humankind arose.

The odds of everything from the Big Bang to the rise of hominids breaking our way are on the scale of winning the Powerball every week for a thousand years.

But don't you dare think that God had anything to do with it.

Farmer Ted and V the K,

You don't have any idea what the word "theroy" means in a scientific context.

Vthe K, you don't have a proper understanding of the theory of evolution.

You continue to damn yourselves.

When you guys do a little research...read some books other than the Bible, and have an iota of an idea about what you are talking about...there is the possiblity of conversation. Until then I advise you to keep your mouths shut on subjects you so obviously, and embarrasingly, do not understand.

You accuse others of arrogance and ignorance? Please....Vthe k's picture is in the dictionary next to arrogance, and weasel and coward.

FT's is next to ignorance.

Again, I really don't care for you much as individuals, and I realize that I don't know you in the true sense of the word, but I am concerned for you as human beings. If your views really are as expressed here, you really really need to seek professional help. I am 100% serious. You are not thinking clearly.

Hashydoo,
Theory,let's see it's an idea that can't be absolutely proven or absolutely disproven. Remember geometry? But if it makes you feel better then by all means keep believing you evolved from an ape. I don't think anyone here will dispute that belief.

Sorry for the typo...irreducible. Is what happens without sleep.

I just marvel at the arrogance and stupidity of people who embrace the theory of evolution. My coursework was pro-evolution, not via some hayseed university. And some of my profs actually acknowledged the several holes in the theory of evolution. The fossil record does NOT support evolution wholly. Bits and pieces are gathered and images are formulated on the basis of someone's idea, not solid evidence. Which of you have actually studied evolution? Where are your credentials? I seriously doubt any of you ever read a book or examined the evidence on either side. You're just drones programmed by popular opinion to rage against whatever you perceive as what goes against your lifestyle.

btw hash, it's "theory", not "theroy". You should be ashamed of yourself.

"I just marvel at the arrogance and stupidity of people who embrace the theory of evolution."

"The fossil record does NOT support evolution wholly"

"not solid evidence"

???!!!

The fossil record are the solid evidence that support evolution, in each discovery of a new evidence we found new pieces that fit in the theory, if that pieces did not fit, then the theory has to be revised.
If somebody has evidences or a theory against the evolution, he can talk about that and to convince the scientific community, but the evolution can not be refuted easily, the early errors of interpretation of the theory have been corrected along the time with a scientific methodology, removing the mistakes and accepting the new evidences, though it is against the stablished theory. Nobody can do tricks with a scientific method, a trick is easily discovered, only the verified facts are incorpored to a scientific theory.Fellowes, if you talk about "several holes in the theory of evolution", you should consider apply that critic to the creationism and to think if that can offer the consistancy that you are requesting. The creationism is not possible to sustain without to resort to private beliefs that not all the world shares.

The religion is a matter of faith. It is a different league.

Frankly, as you know, I'm an atheist, but I don't see why or how the theory of evolution could be used to disprove the idea of God necessarily. It certainly blows a lot of the Bible out of the water though, and i guess that's what upsets and scares all of you so much.

Why couldn't God be behind the wonders of Evolution? Well, i have my reasons for believing he's not, which I won't go into here, but if someone wanted to argue from that position, I would give it a listen...However, to stare a monumental scientific breakthrough, and again for you thick ones, a scientifically scrutinized and verified theory, and toss it off with the wave of a hand, is simply outrageous and idiotic.

and Fellowes, since when do we have to post our resumes in order to support our opinions? I can assure you that my education has been thorough and top notch. But let's just say I'm an interested citizen, who has read the books, my little weak-minded friend. Maybe you did attend a legitimate university. It's clear then that you simply did not understand the material, mr-I -took-a-course-in-college-about-this. Please. Who cares.

Intelligent design is dependent on faith, science is not. This is a simple principle you all seem incapable of understanding. You are now the second person who keeps referring to these "holes" in evolution, yet neither of you can seem to remember exactly what they are. Show me the holes! But the point is you people come here advocating intelligent design without ANY empirical evidence to support it, but only with half remembered stories of "holes" in evolution. How is dissproving Evolution an argument for ID anyway? If Darwin were entirely worng, ID would still be pure bullshit science. Are you really so foolish?

And Kudos to carlos, who despite the fact that he is clearly not a native speaker of English, is more coherent and clear thinking than the lot of you. Nicely said carlos!

Hashypoopoo,
The theory of evolution is not a continuous timeline where every species's evolution is verified. So your belief in evolution is itself fine because you have FAITH in what you have read about the subject and the information that has been provided. So you see a Christian has faith in God from what they have read in the Bible. So people that believe in evolution or God are basing their beliefs on FAITH. Boy you sure could have fooled me that you're an atheist(sp). As I have said if you want to believe that you evolved from an ape then I sure won't argue with you.

Those who say that the fossil record does not support evolution are lying. It does, in every detail and by every test. Surely it is Satan that is the prince of lies in Christian eyes, so why repeat a lie?

If you are going to try and call me on this, I have a degree in Geology from the University of Cambridge, where I studied under some of the most eminent palaeobiologists in the world, including Simon Conway Morris with whom I had one-on-one tutorial sessions. Anyone who feels they can discuss the fossil record will know of Simon's reputation, of course, with him having helped reinterpret the Burgess Shale, the most important single fossil deposit so far discovered.

fellowes

You again are mistaking the idea of evolution. The main thrust is not random, by definition. It is selection by small non-random influences over a large number of generations. In fact it is specifically about the non-random factors in an otherwise rather random system.

Farmer Ted

That is not the definition of theory. There is far more to it than that. How can you discuss the theory of evolution when it is clear you don't know what a theory is and you don't know what evolution is?

V the K

Anthropic principle. Two words that render your entire 361-word argument invalid.

God had nothing to do with it because god does not exist. You only believe in a god because you ahve been told to. You have no reasoned argument to say that one exists. Even if you could show that known science is flawed that is an argument against particular scientific theories, it does nothing to support the idea of a god!

You are so wrong farmer ted,

I don not have FAITH in evolution. It has been documented by sceintific process. If a new theory came along that dispproved evolution scintifically, I would be happy to change my views. This is yet to have happened.

Faith requires a suspension of reason and rationality. It is belief for the sake of believing alone. It requires you to stop thinking at some point. Science, on the other hand is the complete opposite. It requires proof and substantiation. I do not have FAITH in evolution, because, I am willing to consider scientific evidence that contradicts this theory and adjust my views accordingly. You on the other hand, are not willing to examine evidence that contradicts your views, and no one or nothing will ever be able to convince you that your false beliefs or Faith, is wrong.

You have no proven that you don not understand what a "theory", "evolution" and "faith" even mean. How could you possibly be worthy of dialogue? seriously, get help, and stick to milking cows. that's about as much intellectual stimulation as your little mind can handle.

And Farmer Ted, as I have mentioned before, at least I have evolved from ape into a human being. This is a step you have yet to achieve.

You still think exactly like an ape.

Ahh hashypoo and dick please enlighten all of us non-intellects on theory and evolution. Hashy you just call names and throw insults but not a sane debate. Why is that? Are you still mad that you live in your mommies basement? You are right though

further debate with you is not an option because you may have evolved from an ape but you act like a 2 year old. Remeber to be looking in your local grocers aisle for my genetically altered veggies. See what they do to your eyes?

umm ted, I have explained what "theory" and "evolution" mean, as have others in this thread. Is it really my fault that you cannot understand this?

I mean if you want to understand the information is easily available to you. Why should I be held responsible for the fact that you have not recieved an adequate education? Why should I do research for you that you should have done before you open your big mouth? There is nothing I can do about that.

You refuse to listen to reason. You have said so much, a number of times, that you simply refuse to believe something. How can a person like that be taught?

As for hurling insults, you have done your share as well, so not only are you an ignorant, you are a hypocrite. You call for sane debate, yet you have never posted anything remotely "sane" at all.

Richard,

At the very most, all you have proven is that it takes the same leap of faith to not believe in God as it takes to believe in Him.

V the K,

Not believing in something does not require a "leap of faith".

The very definition of "faith" requires beleif in something. disbelief is not the same as faith.

I can't believe a "man of faith" like yourself, dosen't even know what the word "faith" means.

Typcial relgious idiocy. When are you going to realize you are way out of your league here? You coward and weasel.

Hashyfoo,
It seems to me that you are the one that can't explain theory or faith. All you ever say is that I wouldn't understand so you won't waste your time. That's typical of someone who spouts a few buzz words but has no idea of their meaning. Oh well have a good day in mommy's basement.

Farmer ted, You thick thick brick, why do you keep trying to bait me.

You've made it very clear to me, and everyone else here, a number of times, that you "refuse to believe" in evolution. Why do you keep begging me to enlighten you? God find out for yourself. I've said this before. Do you have a dictionary?

Ok,
Hash,hashfan,anon and whoever else you are I simply said that I don't believe I evolved from an ape. That is one small section of the entire THEORY of evolution. As long as the word THEORY remains then it is nothing but a theory. So enlighten me as to how a collection of so called facts still has the name THEORY? If it were irrefuteable(sp) then it would be called the FACTUAL eveidence of eveolution. That means no holes in the information. Tell your mom I said hi and to keep eating those veggies.

V the K

But my view does not require that I prove or show anything, your view requires that you have a reason. I take the default position that something that is undetectable, for which there is no evidence does not exist.

There is no reason to believe in a god apart from that you have been taught, when impressionable, either young or in a vulnerable state, that there is a supernatural being. In order to believe you should have a reason. It is you that require

Farmer Ted

You are making no sense. Hashfanatic makes a very valid point. You make no attempt to address that point, but simply resort to randomised abuse. that suggests to me that it is you, not he having trouble understanding.

And you still have no idea of the meaning of theory. Evolution might be "only" a theory, but creationism/ID can never even be hypothesis, let alone theory. Theories, and even hypotheses need to be so much more than you are assuming. Please learn about science from scientists (not ignorant, anti-science religionists) before trying to debate! You will look less out of your depth.

Dickiepoo,
I have already said that religion takes faith and belief in the Bible. That is why you or hashy or hashfab or whoever can't debate me. I have acknowledged that religious beliefs are based on the Bible and it's teachings. I am open to the evolution THEORY but I'm not going to give up my belief in God for a THEORY that has yet to be recognized as 100% factual. Now hurry off to help your buddy hashass he's getting beatup pretty bad.

farmer ted,
You couldn't debate with an ape.

You have not presented ANY evidence for your views. You have been told time and time again that you are misunderstanding the concept of "theory". You refuse to educate yourself as to how exactly you are misunderstanding this concept, adn you have said a number of times that you simply refuse to believe in evolution. You then contradict yourself by saying you are open to the theory of evolution. What the hell? You are making no sense at all.

You then have the arrogance to verbally strut around like you've won some debate when you make it clearer with each post that you don't know what you are talking about at all. You are simply unbelievable.

Seriously, how do you feed yourself?

Indeed, Farmer Ted, it is based solely on faith. However you have yet to give a reason for your faith. The reason is of course that you have been told to have faith by other people who believe, and have a vested interest in spreading their belief. You have been led by the nose, and your credulous belief is no reason to question sound science.

Your belief in creation isn't even original to your own fairy tale. Many religions that precede Judeo-Christian traditions have the same stories - fall from grace, worldwide floods, kings of legendary wisdom, deities incarnate, even visitors from the East bringing gifts, even reincarnation after three days. The myths you believe are not even original, and at the time they were spread they were not even unique. There were many mystics at the time Jesus is supposed to have lived (even his existence is uncertain as historical fact) who claimed to be the messiah, and many of Jesus's stories were also told about others. By chance one has dominated. The myths you believe are not even the only ones about Jesus, tere were many more gospels than four and they contradicted each other as those four do, and the ones you believe were chosen by the Emperor Constantine (hence Constantinopole, centre of the Eastern part of the Roman Empire) who was not even converted to Christianity until he was in a coma shortly before his death. He was never consciously a Christian, yet he chose which stories you believe and which were to be discarded!

P.S. Just a little education. Evolution is a theory as it makes specific predictions and those are borne out. There is a huge amount of evidence for evolution. On the other hand divine creation does not make any specific predictions, yet even so the very general assumptions it brings about are not borne out by reality. There is not only no evidence for creationism/ID but much evidence against it!

You have been lied to by the proponents of these ideas. Since you presumably believe that Satan is the Prince of Lies shouldn't you be asking why these people have lied to you, rather than questioning us that tell you the truth?

Thinkers vs. 'thumpers': 'Belief' is inversely proportional to I.Q. ... Happy "D" day (12 Feb)