« Gray Lady Explains Burying Major Terror Plot Story | Main | Impeached Criminal Alcee Hastings to Co-Chair Shrillary Campaign »

These people always remind me of myself, at age 8 or 9, gearing up and playing "War" in the back yard or out in the orchard with my brother and some buddies. It was sheer joy imagining myself as Guy Gabaldon or Audie Murphy, laying my life on the line against brutal odds, and emerging a celebrated Hero. But, even at that fanciful stage of life, I knew too well that it would be over with at dark, Mom's great supper would be consumed, and I would finish the day in a soft bed. These Moonbats are no different than I was back then; problem is, they are not exactly 8- or 9-year-olds, they are not playing (not consciously, anyway), and they know inside that there are no "brutal odds"...it just makes the poor fools feel so "avante-garde" and heroic to convince themselves that there are.

Toa: Very perceptive, and you reminded me of similar times growing up (doesn't seem that kids, especially boys, play "Cops and Robbers," or "Cowboys and Indians" much anymore -- doubtless the anti-gun libs have had a lot to do with that circumstance).

Basically, these demented crazoids (thank you, WKRP's Dr. Johnny Fever!) just never grew up, other than physically. Life has been so easy, money so easy to come by (just ask Mom & Dad for a few bucks/euros anytime you need it), their education so liberal, so leftist, that despite what they see with their own eyes (airplanes flying into buildings and killing 3,000 people; beheadings; hate-filled speech and action by Muslims all over the world), they still live in that 8 to 9-year old's fantasy world where no one is really out to do them harm (Mama will always save me), and it must be like my teachers have said: blame my own country first (Why do they hate us so? Boo-hoo!), as all cultures are "equal," and we can't criticize other peoples for their actions lest we be guilty of political incorrectness (Oh, horrors!).

So now you are advocating killing our allies? Nice! I can only imagine how you feel about most of the rest of the world who honestly despise us! I love the whole, "if you don't agree with us, and dare protest against us, you should die" mentality. More of that Christian "love and compassion" you all talk about?

See the thing is, aside from seeing planes fly into buildings, they have also seen innocent people/children killed in Iraq for over four years now, concentration camps set up in Cuba, people dissapearing into "out of country" detention centers around the world, people held without being charged with a crime, or tried, questionable interrogation practices, an adminsitration that has at worst practiced torture, at best has lobbied aggresively for the right to torture, a bullying, arrogant,ignorant, corrupt, lying "leader of the free world" with a "you are either with us or aginst us mentality", a failed oil executive who claims God tells him what to do, etc....etc,etc.

After you guys are finished killing everyone who dares to speak out against your "holy" country, who are you gonna go after. Remember Italy is our friend!

I don't like Bush and I never really did, but I got nothin' for effete spoiled Europansies either. Honestly, I don't think there's a single working pair of testicles west of the Urals. So, let 'em play with their dolls and have their little protest hissy fits until St. Peters becomes the Mosque of Osama and their entire continent is ruled over by people who'll cut their heads off for not bending over and chanting to the pedophile moon-god five times a day. It'll serve 'em right.

Some people say the premise of the CBS series JERICHO, where groups like the nuts above join up with Islamic terrorists (they called them religious fanatics in the show) and Timothy McVeigh types, join together cripple America setting off atomic bombs in American cities was ludicrous. After reading things like this it shouldnt sound so outlandish that groups dedicated to knocking America down would join forces to do such a thing.

So V the K who do you like? You hate the Muslims, you hate the left(the majority of people in your own country), you hate Europeans, you don't even like Bush! etc.etcetc. Who's left? People just like you? Hopefully there aren't too many of them.

Westerberg says 'our allies', as they carry a sign that says God smash America and then accuses readers of Moonbattery of being driven by God yet mentions nothing of his brethren wishing our early deaths to be brought by God as depicted in the picture. I just want to point out that a riot is different than a protest, the killing of innocents is not by our troops but Islamic terrorists, and the description of Guantanamo as a concentration camp is typical of the left. They are being treated a million times better down there than they deserve with medical treatment and even being served culturally acceptable food dishes when in reality, that describes nothing even close to a concentration camp. How warped can these people get?

MB, the irony is that Guantanamo Bay is a Five Star Spa compared with the Cuban prisons on the rest of the island. The detainees at Club Gitmo are given food, health care, and hygienic accommodations. Meanwhile, Castro rounds up political dissidents and puts them in prisons that would gave Torquemada the Heebie-Jeebies, and the left treats him as a great hero.

Are the left idiots, or do they just hate America and by extension all that is good and right in the world? Answer: Both.

Hey MB, if our allies carry those signs imagine what our enemies think! Let me make it clear, those protesters are NOT my breathern, but they do have a right to be angry. That, i can accept. And hey, look around there are plenty of people in your own country who are angry too.

And MB your claim is that American troops are not responsible for a single "innocent" death in Iraq? is that right? Not one Iraqi baby has died by American hands? Not one woman has been raped by an American soldier? Jesus, there is all kinds of proof that you are wrong.

And look up the definition of concentration camp. g-bay fits that defintion. How you calim to now of the conditions there are beyond me. You only know what you've been told from highly unreliable sources. The same people who told us Iraq was riddled with WMD's. I think in the years to come G-bay and the other secret internment camps we have set up around the world will be revealed for what they really are. Why do you think these prisoners are being held in Cuba instead of the US anyway? Not only that you claim to KNOW that these prisoners must be guilty of something, yet they have not been charged 5 years on with any crimes. This is again a fundamentally anti-American policy. But I shouldn't have to remind you of this given the fact that you are all experts in American and International law. My bet is that most of you wouldn't last a month in the camp you call a five star spa. Even Colin Powell is calling for the closure of this stain on American history..

HaHa VtheK. I was thinking that when I read the thread about Feingold, whether his supporters vote for him because their stupid or they really want to see the demise of the United States.
And now for a few more obvious differences between concentration camps and G-bay. People in concentration camps did not get food as they do at Gbay, they were rounded up out of their homes and not from enemy lines, Gbayers are given medical care, access to the red cross, Korans, they are not being systemically executed like the Jews were and they are being kept in clean confinements. You need to be deranged to draw more similarities between the two but I guess that's the same prerequisite for being a liberal. Plus what westerberg is saying is dangerous because it distorts history of the real concentration camps. Another thing, those guys at Gbay want westerberg and every other infidel dead, unlike the Jewish prisoners of the Nazis. A few detainees might be innocent but most are absolute animals, which ruins it for the good ones, too bad. I never said we never killed an innocent in war but westerberg can't seem to accept that we don't target innocents for death, which is a hallmark tactic of terrorists. I don't know why a sane person would ignore that stuff except that maybe he hates the US so much that hes willing to make it look bad however he can. Pathetic.

if our allies carry those signs imagine what our enemies think!

Trying hard to care, trying, trying...nope. Can't do it. Sorry.

Here's one for you: do Europeans care what we think? Of course not. And we're the 800 lb gorilla, while they're doing their Pee Wee Herman impression. So why should we care what they think? What do the Peruvians think? Or the Burmese? Who cares?

Let me make it clear, those protesters are NOT my breathern, but they do have a right to be angry.

So do we. We have even more right than they or any Europeans do to be angry, as we faced the largest attack. And what's more, we have the wherewithall to do something about it, instead of throwing a childish hissy fit.

And MB your claim is that American troops are not responsible for a single "innocent" death in Iraq? is that right? Not one Iraqi baby has died by American hands? Not one woman has been raped by an American soldier?

You're right. We should behead people by the score, and put the video on the web as a matter of policy. That would be understandable, noble even, instead of the odd accident or criminal act that is punished when found out, which is of course reprehensible.

Not only that you claim to KNOW that these prisoners must be guilty of something, yet they have not been charged 5 years on with any crimes.

Under the Third Geneva Convention(aka the international law leftists are always braying about), unlawful combatants can be shot as spies and saboteurs. Drumhead tribunal, firing squad. Period.

Unlawful combatants are combatants who do not follow all of the following conditions:

1) being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

2) having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

3) carrying arms openly;

4) conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war (i.e., not extending the benefits of the Geneva Convention to their prisoners; torturing our prisoners to death with electric drills is a bit iffy for "extending the benefits of the Geneva Convention", yes?)

Now I think we can all agree that the terrorists in Iraq (and yes, Virginia, someone blowing up marketplaces is most certainly a terrorist) fail to qualify for any of those conditions, much less all of them. Anyone carrying arms out of uniform is

This is again a fundamentally anti-American policy.

So that's good, right?

Sorry, lost part of my previous comment, which should have read "Anyone carrying arms out of uniform is therefore by definition an unlawful combatant."

My bet is that most of you wouldn't last a month in the camp you call a five star spa.

And my bet is that neither you nor any of your comrades would last a day in the hands of the terrorists, and if you did, you'd wish to God they'd killed you quickly and cleanly instead.

Also, prisoners of war can be held "without charges or trial" for up to Ssix months AFTER cessation of hostilities according to internationsal agreements on war. It's believed that the last American prisoner held in a North Vietnamese prison camp died FIFTEEN YEARS AGO!

You need to be deranged to draw more similarities between the two but I guess that's the same prerequisite for being a liberal.

It is impossible to be intellectually honest and be a liberal. That leaves insanity as the only explanation.

The left hates Bush and the right so much that they have to inflate all of the "crimes" of the right to absurd Hitlerian extremes to justify their deranged hatred. Is Club Gitmo anything at all like a Nazi concentration camp? Hell, no. But if it were, then the demented hatred of lefties would be justified. So, they deny our reality, and substitute their own that justifies their rage.

the fact is that concentration camps are not and have never been exclusive to Nazi Germany. The English had concentrations camps in South Africa well before the Nazis. The fact that you won't look up the definition of a concentration camp is another example of your own personal ignorance causing you to maske crazy assumptions. Gbay is a concentration camp, because it fits the definition. We called them "internment camps" when we rounded up the japanese, but it was a kind of concentration camp too. The nazi concentration camps are of the most extreme, sickening and brutal versions. Gbay is not that. But that does not make Gbay good, or right, or wholesome, or even humane.

Remember the admin argued that rights granted to prisoners of war were irrelevant because these were NOT prisoners of war, they were "legal combatants" , a term they made up, in order to deny these rights to these prisoners. The truth is you and I don't know a godamn thing about who these people are, how and or why they got picked up in the first place. Give them a fair trial and I'll be content if those that can be found guilty are incarcerated. My bet is, they don't have much on most of these guys.

Left Libs like to whine that the people at Club Gitmo are all innocent lambs who were just "in the wrong place at the wrong time."

Even if true, if I were in the wrong place at the wrong time, I'd infinitely rather be picked up by the USMC and sent to Club Gitmo, than picked up by Al Qaeda and have my head chopped off.

Give them a fair trial and I'll be content if those that can be found guilty are incarcerated.

You mean "executed," don't you? Fixed that for ya.

I noticed you ignored the comment about being held by the terrorists. Good job, too. They don't consider panties on the head as torture.

And as for your pathetic (and pedantic) whine about "concentration camps," any place that holds people against their will qualifies under the dictionary definition. The present highly pejorative connotation comes largely from our friends, the Germans (who developed the invention of the Spanish and later British). According to the strict definition, Sheriff Arpaio's work camps in Arizona qualify too, as does any prison. So stop with the emotive smear rubbish. We'd be perfectly justified in hanging or shooting every mother's son in Guantanamo, if we felt like it. They're lucky to be (and certainly don't deserve to be) alive.

Piracy was a huge problem in the early 18th century until the Royal Navy began helping pirates find their way to Execution Dock in London. Problem solved. That's what we need to do with terrorists today. And we can't agonize over every case, any more than the British did. Anyone caught scampering around armed, in suspicious circumstances, I'm willing to assume is a terrorist, and deal with accordingly.

kudos to jay for actually looking something up for once! However, you are still wrong. A prison cannot be defined as a concentration camp as they generally do not hold "political prisoners" or "foreign nationals" Look it up again.

No government has ever refered to a place like this as a concentration camp. "internment camp" "detention facility" etc, are the more common terms governments use. It's still a concentration camp. i don't care what your personal intepretation of the term indicates. This is why they write dictionaries and encyclopedias. So that there is some common terminology we can agree on and confirm. It'd be pretty crazy if we all went around using a personal vocabulary, and constructed mean9ing solely on connotation.

Again, the fact that you claim to know that these people are guilty of ANYTHING is absurd, whithout knowing who the person is, what they have been accused of doing, where they come from etc. You are making wild wild assumptions about the guilt of these people, based on ZERO knowledge of their personal cases! This is a dangerous mindset and exactly the same type of logic that the Nazis used. Your call for their extermination only works to confirm your desire to turn GBAY into your defintion of a Nazi death camp. So what you're claiming is that Gbay is not a true concentration camp, but it should be! Wow!

I do not support their execution! I support the incarceration of those that can actually be found guilty of something after having been given a fair trial. i do not suppport the death penalty.

also jay,

Prisons generally house people who have been tried and found guilty of an offence, not people who, as you put it, may well have been "in the wrong place at the wrong time". I have never before heard this used as sincere justification for the indefinite internment of prisoners in any context!

As to the terrorists: All you wingnuts respond to any criticism of your country and/or religion with viscious attacks at other countries and religions. This is why you are the moral relativists. You are incapable of seeing the issue for what it is without comparing it to something else. I'm sure that prisoners are treated worse in the custody of radical islamic fundamentalists, but this does not lead one to the conclusion that prisoners are treated well, or humanely, in our prison camps. The fact is that our "prison camps" are a reflection of me and MY culture, and I actually may be able to do something about it, whereas I have very little control over what the Islamists do.

You are a tedious boy.

Merriam-Webster's "concentration camp": n (1901) a camp where persons (as prisoners of war, political prisoners, or refugees) are detained or confined."

Refugees are not convicted of any crime. So we're talking about a camp where people (including the non-limiting examples proferred) are detained. Governments don't refer to any detention facilities as "concentration camps" for reasons that surely are obvious to even the dimmest bulb. Have someone explain it to you.

The fact is that our "prison camps" are a reflection of me and MY culture, and I actually may be able to do something about it, whereas I have very little control over what the Islamists do.

A facile and mendacious answer befitting a sophomoric intellect. It's nice and safe - even fashionable - to strike a pose about the US, but dangerous as all hell (even in the US) to utter one squeak against Islam or Islamic terrorists. I'm not asking much: just periodically wear a T-shirt demanding that Muslims denounce terrorism. Or don't you have the balls to do that? If not, then shut up.

And if you want to clean up YOUR culture, go to Berkeley. I lived there for many years, and God knows it needs cleaning up (in every sense). Or can't you do anything about that either?

Jay, Yeah, that's the point Jay, people in "concentration camps" are people who have not been convicted of any crime, as prisoners of war, political prisoners, and refugees. Prisons are not "concentration camps" because their inhabitants HAVE BEEN convicted of a crime. You've looked it up twice now, and you still don't seem to get it! Amazing, but not suprising.

I've got no problem wearign that shirt "periodically",because I believe they should, and I believe some, in fact have denounced terrorism. Bravo to them. i'll wear that shirt if you're willing to take a cold hard look at your own government and judge their actions on pure moral reasoning, untainted by some kind of mad patriotic lust.If it was your son picked up some where in from some airport, or some "battle zone", no matter the circumstances, in some fictional country, would you be contenet with the way his case was being handled? Taken to a third country "internment camp", "prisoner camp" "illegal combatabt rest area" what ever the hell you want to call it, no charges pressed, no evidence produced, no hearings or any of that shit. interrogation, the possiblity of extemely agressive interrogation, the possibilty of torture, the possibilty of death given the history of these sorts of places...would that be ok with you? If these were American guys being held in some "respectable" western land, would you think this was fair, or even a rational treatment? And don't give me the "it's better than getting picked up the Islamists" or "do you what the so and so's would do?" and all that bullshit! That is NOT the point here! don't twist these doubts I know you have about the true ethics about GBAY into twisted anger towards the "enemey". But you are not capable of that are you?

And, answer me, are you truly suggesting GBAY would be better and should become a Nazi style death camp? Calling for executions without any trials, etc...sure as hell sounds like it. And you haven't retracted those remarks as of now....shame

Yeah, that's the point Jay, people in "concentration camps" are people who have not been convicted of any crime, as prisoners of war, political prisoners, and refugees. Prisons are not "concentration camps" because their inhabitants HAVE BEEN convicted of a crime.

The point has eluded you yet again. A "concentration camp" is a place where people are detained. Webster's offers some examples, but they are not comprehensive. Any place where people are detained could be characterized as a concentration camp; your transparently obvious motive for doing so here was to associate Guantanamo with Nazi concentration camps. I'm quite sure you couldn't name a Spanish or British concentration camp. That's why the point is mendacious. It seeks to condemn by association, rather than by logic.

I'm perfectly willing to take a cold hard look at our government (you said you're an American, right?). Are you willing to wear the t-shirt demanding that Muslims denounce terrorism? I very much doubt it, particularly if you live in Europe (Japan doesn't count). Wear that t-shirt on a train leaving from the Gard du Nord. Please post a photo of it, once you get out of hospital.

"…no matter the circumstances…" Ah, that's the rub, isn't it? Do you think that the military picked up 558 people at random, out of a population of 23 million, and threw them into Guantanamo just for the hell of it? A number of these clowns have been killed in battle after being released. Oops. Guess they really were terrorists,weren't they?

The point is that the law enforcement model so beloved of liberals doesn't work. First, as implement by liberals, it didn't even work in the U.S., but led to record levels of crime in the 70s-90s. Second, a law enforcement model presupposes a settled, civil society that can afford the luxury of pondering each individual's case at infinite length. That's why even in the U.S., critical times have necessitated martial law, or, as in the case of the Civil War, the suspension of the writ of habeas corpus. Third, in wartime there is no basis for finding and deposing witnesses, etc. So the domestic law enforcement model is totally inappropriate, as should be obvious, since the crime – being an illegal combatant – has no equivalent outside of the warfare context.

And, answer me, are you truly suggesting GBAY would be better and should become a Nazi style death camp? Calling for executions without any trials, etc...sure as hell sounds like it.

Nice try at putting words in my mouth. (The equivalent, in my case, would be alleging that you favored turning all the terrorists loose with apologies. You've not said that, and I assume (hope?) that you don't support that.) I suggest military tribunals – as specified in the Third Geneva Convention – followed by execution for those found guilty of being illegal combatants.

The President hasn't done that, doubtless for political reasons, but it would be fully justified if he did, and probably would work wonders. You might consider the precedent of the sainted FDR, who basically made clear to Francis Biddle that he wanted the captured Nazi saboteurs fried, whatever it took, to make a point. I'm with FDR. Or was FDR a Nazi too?

Jay, I've already said that I would be happy to wear that shirt, in Paris, particularly where I would have little problem as most of the French would probably support it's message 100 per cent. As I've pointed out there have been Muslims brave enough to come forward and denounce terrorism. I actually KNOW, WORK WITH and LIVE AMONGST Muslims who have clearly denounced terrorism to me personally and among their friends and families. KUDOS TO THEM! I'd be willing to bet that, at least some of them, would wear that shirt too! But agian, this argument IS NOT ABOUT ISLAM! Why don't you get that?

While we disagree on the definition of a concentration camp, we are really not that far from agreeing with other, now that you've decided to take a more rational, less emotional response to the issue. Military tibunals would be ok with me, if they were open to the press and the public. I DO NOT support the death penalty under any circumstances, so I am not with you on execution, but I owuld like to see actual charges pressed, and trials/tribunals conducted.

Yes, I do think the government would pick up 558 random people and incarcerate them based on weak suspicion, or circumstancial belief. Some of this prisoners HAVE BEEN let go, after a number of years in internment because the govt. has had absolutely nothing on them. Some of those released were WRONGLY identified from the start. So, yes, there is a degree of arbitrary arrest going on.

"We'd be perfectly justified in hanging or shooting every mother's son in Guantanamo, if we felt like it. They're lucky to be (and certainly don't deserve to be) alive."

This is what you said earlier about how GBAY prisoners should be treated. You made NO mention of Tribunals or trials prior to your last comment. Excuse me for interpreting the statement as a fascist expression, but that is EXACTLY what it sounds like. Now that you've backpeddled away from the "instant execution" position, I think we see that we share at least some common ground, but I still don't believe you are willing to take that cold, hard, and honest look. "My country, right or wrong" seems to be your motto, and you seem to want to justify the governments immoral actions with any kind of twisted mumbo jumbo you can muster. You never really answered my question from the last post, however..

I appreciate your, generally, thoughtful comments. It's actually nice to find at least one person willing to engage in somewhat reasonable dialogue without an overabundance of personal attack and insult.

Some of this prisoners HAVE BEEN let go, after a number of years in internment because the govt. has had absolutely nothing on them.

First, some of the released prisoners have subsequently been killed in battle against our troops (sorry, no time to look up a reference). Second, we don't know why the government released them. It's perfectly possible that the jokers in question were considered to be insignificant to be worth the bother and expense of further internment, that they convinced their captors that they were now dissuaded from further terrorist activities, that they might have provided information in return for release, or even that they might have been released to infiltrate terrorist cells (unlikely, to be sure, but possible).

You made NO mention of Tribunals or trials prior to your last comment.

No, not explicitly, but that's what I had in mind, and I would hope that that was implicitly clear. A military tribunal is far short of a domestic criminal trial, which is wholly inappropriate, since wartime conditions hardly allow scope for the niceties of domestic criminal justice practice, as mentioned earlier. In the military tribunal context, I'd be happy with a civil litigation standard - more likely than not, rather than beyond a reasonable doubt. Three officers taking evidence from our troops (whose word I would pretty take at face value) and rendering a judgment, and carrying out sentence (if any) within days, is what I have in mind, something that approximates to Napoleonic Code (presumption of guilt unless something exculpatory turns up).

"My country, right or wrong" seems to be your motto, and you seem to want to justify the governments immoral actions with any kind of twisted mumbo jumbo you can muster.

Whoa. This statement is a classic example of begging the question, because it presumes its conclusion in its premise. I don't consider the government's actions as at all immoral, quite the contrary.

Much as I love dogs, if I saw one running down the street foaming at the mouth, to protect my family and myself I'd shoot him first and investigate his rabies status later. That's pretty much my model for dealing with terrorists. I'm with FDR, who effectively ordered the execution of the Nazi saboteurs to make a point to our enemies, and thereby (God love him) acted to protect Americans. It's important to deal swiftly and decisively with mortal threats.